Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2309 Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:34 am Post subject:
There are a number of different approaches, they are not necessarily separate in function or use, and can/should vary from situation to situation.
tongue/throat - subtle movements in the oral cavity to produce the vibrato - like a vibrato in whistling
jaw - where the jaw is moved to creat the affect - still a subtle move (often working together with the tongue)
hand - rocking of the right hand on the instrument - changes the pressure on the embouchure creating the affect.
diaphragm - pulsing the air slightly using the diaphragm muscles - to me more of a tremolo than vibrato.
I use the tongue/throat and hand vibrato at times.. Use of the hand probuces a more "showy" affect - and can be a visable embelishment. (when a director asks you to add more vibrato, and you think you are already - moving your hand willl convince the director)
With practice all can/should be controlled and used intentionally and sparingly (like spices, wonderful in the right amount, awful if too much)
LIke other things, practice slowly and rhythmically, speeding up and slowing down, with varying intesity (narrow vs. wide). Learn to control it, not only on or off. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 7:19 am Post subject:
For me the hand works best for f and mf material and the jaw for p and pp. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2610 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 1:08 pm Post subject:
Playing early 1900's jazz with a Harry James style vibrato is kind of like farting in a crowded elevator. You could do it. But most people present aren't going to like it much. So whatever method you use, you have to be able to control it and use it in the style consistent with the music you are playing. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet
The problem with using your hand to produce vibrato is that it involves repeatedly pushing the instrument back and forth on your lips— and generally you want to avoid pushing the instrument into your lips. In general, modern players do not use hand vibrato.
A better way to do vibrato is to first learn to do wide lip bends on notes (both to make the note sharp and flat), and then eventually learn to make these bends faster and less wide/pitch-altering. This becomes vibrato. It does not involve pushing the instrument into your lips like the hand method. It is also a good method because it gives you more control of your sound, so you can adjust your vibrato with respect to the style of music you are playing.
I've known a few people who actually can't control their vibrato— they always have some sort of fast throat/diaphragm-produced vibrato, and they can't play without vibrato. It reminds me of a flute vibrato. It is useful to be able to play notes straight, with no vibrato, as well.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 5:17 am Post subject:
sthomas98 wrote:
The problem with using your hand to produce vibrato is that it involves repeatedly pushing the instrument back and forth on your lips— and generally you want to avoid pushing the instrument into your lips. In general, modern players do not use hand vibrato.
.....l.
Well....ok, I guess. You did say “generally” and “in general”, but I don’t really agree that using a hand vibrato is either outdated or in any way harmful. No, excessive mouthpiece pressure is absolutely not recommended, but watch any top player (Doc, Arturo, Maynard) in the extreme registers, there has to be enough pressure to create a seal between the mouthpiece and chops. I guess that’s obvious though.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
I think it's important to learn hand and another way. I use the jaw.
In general, the hand will work. It's not pushing or pulling but, a gentle rocking of the fingers on the valve buttons. This does change the pressure on the lips. It shouldn't be enough to notice any change with the embouchure.
I find doing it with the jaw gives me the sound I like better, still, I find times where the hand works so, you need both. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct.
I think of singing through the trumpet. For me the jaw is the subtle cause but the effect should be a singing sound.
Then there is the jazz vibrato. Spending on the phrase and tempo it can be so many things. Most common is adding a fast vibrato at the end of a sustained note.
Be advised that a hand vibrato - more accurately a finger vibrato - involves a very subtle back and forth the R hand.
Go to about 1:00 and later points on this video which has closeups of Doc using a hand vibrato using the thumb and pinky and various fingers depending on what valves he was pushing. As far as I'm aware Doc pretty much exclusively used a hand vibrato.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:32 am Post subject:
trumpetchops wrote:
I think it's important to learn hand and another way. I use the jaw.
In general, the hand will work. It's not pushing or pulling but, a gentle rocking of the fingers on the valve buttons. This does change the pressure on the lips. It shouldn't be enough to notice any change with the embouchure.
I find doing it with the jaw gives me the sound I like better, still, I find times where the hand works so, you need both.
+1.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
My daughter was taking voice lessons and the teacher was very critical of singers who "wiggled their jaw" to produce a vibrato, she thought it should happen naturally if it happened at all. _________________ B.O.F. with 0 credibility.
Silver American Standard, Vega, King Liberty, Beuscher TrueTone.
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6126 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:23 pm Post subject:
BardoXV wrote:
My daughter was taking voice lessons and the teacher was very critical of singers who "wiggled their jaw" to produce a vibrato, she thought it should happen naturally if it happened at all.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:48 pm Post subject:
Trubicar wrote:
First sing with vibrato and than just copy the sound in your head through your trumpet, and it will happen.
So what do you do for the student or other player who can’t and doesn’t understand HOW to sing with a vibrato?
“....copy the sound in your head through your trumpet, and it will happen...”?
I don’t buy it. Might work for some people, but for many, there needs to be an understanding of exactly WHAT to do to produce it. If it was that simple, couldn’t we tell a student to just “copy the sound of double tonguing”....(or most any other aspect of playing; range, flexibility, etc.) .....“in your head through your horn and it will happen?”
It’s just not that simple for a majority of players.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Brad361, thanks for qouestion. Of oucourse is not that simple, but through my exploration and studying the trumpet I came to a conclusion that I’ve spnet to much time thinking technically, and had a great deal of problems because of it. I didn’t trust my self. This is why I said listen to your inner voice. First sing loudly and than try to amplify to trumpet.
If your (or my) pupil are unable (maybe becouse they’re too young) to sing with vibrato they should plat straight.
Mr. Pandolfi (which I admire and quote a lot) said I don’t know how trumpet works, as I don’t know how I walk. It is a process in our brains which dictates through nerves and muscles etc. what we are doing.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject:
Trubicar wrote:
......
If your (or my) pupil are unable (maybe becouse they’re too young) to sing with vibrato they should plat straight.
......
Or, just learn the mechanics of playing with vibrato, and PRACTICE (THERE’S a radical idea 😉).
I cannot sing with vibrato in part because I never bothered to learn how, but I did learn and practice vibrato on trumpet. I can now use it effectively (and sparingly), but if my teacher had just told me to forget about it because I can’t sing with vibrato, that would have been a disservice.
Yes, you certainly CAN overthink a concept, but there are aspects of playing a brass instrument that for many won’t just happen naturally, regardless of how much you listen to others or simply attempt to transmit the concepts from your brain to the horn. An “inner voice” might tell you what to do, but that doesn’t mean you will be able to do it without practice. That whole ideology is a major reason that I absolutely can’t stand television like “The Voice”, it’s all about abstract concepts and very little in the way of solid mechanics and technique. WE need BOTH to become accomplished musicians.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
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