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Changing to unfurled setting.



 
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Stanislav234
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Joined: 12 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Changing to unfurled setting. Reply with quote

I decided to experiment a little with my embouchure by setting the mouthpiece to relaxed lips and allowing the air to find its way. I tried it with the mouthpiece alone and at first attempts there was not only the air, but a slight low pitched vibration at the background too. I managed to relax more and get free, undistracted airflow. Then i switched to a leadpipe (while retaining the same feel i've got with blowing the mouthpiece this way) and got very resonant Eb, which was quite unexpected. I did the same thing on the horn and got even more surprised – middle G was very rich, fat and and penetrating. i've never heard anything like that from myself before.

BUT.. My range in this setting is limited to the same middle G and any effort to play higher ends with pinching and going back to previous embouchure habits. It feels like i don't know how to use this embouchure. Although i have a High E with my "normal" setting. Have you ever tried anything like that? I'd like to hear your experiences and thoughts.

Why did i try it? Well, because i've realised that my slightly rolled-in setting is very limited in terms of sound, flexibility and articulation, although i've even managed to play pedal tones this way and developed a good range (Thanks to a lessons with John Mohan). But now i feel that this embouchure leads me nowhere because it is way too tight and closed and i no longer make any progress with it. It is actually painful to play with it – my lips are completely wasted after 2 hour practice session. This experiment has helped me to find something that feels a lot healthier, but i don't know if it is wrong or not.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since you don’t mind experimentation, look up Windworks, and take a look at the BE forum (Balanced Embuchere) here. Both are different approaches to changing your sound. I am using both and finding the extreme exercises. (BE) and approach (windworks) to be real eye openers, and at least in my case are slowly making positive change. I’m finding I can play with shallow and narrow mouthpieces for the 1 st time and my tone has stayed rich and full.

I mentioned to Greg Spence that I was combining the 2 and he said his experience was they didn’t work too well together. I think that may be that some people take the BE exercises and copy their play after roll in or roll out. I’m just using it to explore the range of motion involved in the embouchure and not using the extremes as a model for play. I’ve been doing that less than 2 months and I am seeing some changes in play that seem to be made unconsciously and are having good result. I’ve been doing windworks for a year and it has consistently helped. Both together have started to give me much greater ease of play than I had prior to starting them. Since I do not have to depend on playing to eat I find experimentation (with guidance) to be the fastest way to discover what works (along with an open mind).

And if John helped before I’m sure he can again?
Rod
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rather suspect that seeing as you have ben working with John, then you should go back and discuss this with him. It's all well and good have the world's most amazing sounding middle G, bu if there's nothing else, then it seems to be something that is not a progressive direction... unless you have proper guidance (and back to the first sentence).

cheers

Andy
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digs
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed that John would be a great resource.

I, long ago, played with a very tight chops set up. I’ve experimented a lot, and today am much more unfurled in my approach. But not everything is relaxed, as my corners are still quite firm. A significant difference though is that my corners are much more forward than they used to be, and towards the center compared to how they would feel if I stretched or rolled in my chops.
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Stanislav234
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Joined: 12 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Since you don’t mind experimentation, look up Windworks, and take a look at the BE forum (Balanced Embuchere) here. Both are different approaches to changing your sound. I am using both and finding the extreme exercises. (BE) and approach (windworks) to be real eye openers, and at least in my case are slowly making positive change. I’m finding I can play with shallow and narrow mouthpieces for the 1 st time and my tone has stayed rich and full.

I mentioned to Greg Spence that I was combining the 2 and he said his experience was they didn’t work too well together. I think that may be that some people take the BE exercises and copy their play after roll in or roll out. I’m just using it to explore the range of motion involved in the embouchure and not using the extremes as a model for play. I’ve been doing that less than 2 months and I am seeing some changes in play that seem to be made unconsciously and are having good result. I’ve been doing windworks for a year and it has consistently helped. Both together have started to give me much greater ease of play than I had prior to starting them. Since I do not have to depend on playing to eat I find experimentation (with guidance) to be the fastest way to discover what works (along with an open mind).

And if John helped before I’m sure he can again?
Rod


I've actually had an experience with BE. It helped me to build good fundamentals for starting Systematic Approach. For sure John can help because he is a great teacher. But i no longer have the time to practice these long routines by Claude Gordon. So i'm trying to find something more "compact". Thank you for your suggestion about WindWorks. I'm thinking about buying a membership.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gordon workout is severe if followed. You will find a different approach with windworks. I’ve always believed playing should be enjoyed not slaved over😂
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Changing to unfurled setting. Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
I decided to experiment a little with my embouchure by setting the mouthpiece to relaxed lips and allowing the air to find its way. I tried it with the mouthpiece alone and at first attempts there was not only the air, but a slight low pitched vibration at the background too. I managed to relax more and get free, undistracted airflow. Then i switched to a leadpipe (while retaining the same feel i've got with blowing the mouthpiece this way) and got very resonant Eb, which was quite unexpected. I did the same thing on the horn and got even more surprised – middle G was very rich, fat and and penetrating. i've never heard anything like that from myself before.

BUT.. My range in this setting is limited to the same middle G and any effort to play higher ends with pinching and going back to previous embouchure habits. It feels like i don't know how to use this embouchure. Although i have a High E with my "normal" setting. Have you ever tried anything like that? I'd like to hear your experiences and thoughts.

Why did i try it? Well, because i've realised that my slightly rolled-in setting is very limited in terms of sound, flexibility and articulation, although i've even managed to play pedal tones this way and developed a good range (Thanks to a lessons with John Mohan). But now i feel that this embouchure leads me nowhere because it is way too tight and closed and i no longer make any progress with it. It is actually painful to play with it – my lips are completely wasted after 2 hour practice session. This experiment has helped me to find something that feels a lot healthier, but i don't know if it is wrong or not.


I'd go with the chop setting that plays the high E. So long as you mean the third ledger line high E above the treble clef staff. As most trumpet players never develop that note. In fact most trumpet players only play about half to 60% of the trumpet's musical range. And that's why I've always suggested the Arbans book to an intermediate level trumpet player. Not a beginner.

Roy Stevens and William Costello taught the complete range of the instrument starting the first day. Every beginning student learned to blow a G above high C at his first lesson. To teach the lower register first only produces the huge scrap heap of mediocre trumpets whom we see out there today. Okay once in a while a most gifted trumpet player slips through the cracks. Doc is like this. So was Maynard and all the powerful trumpets you see in commercial and studio work. As a matter of fact I haven't seen a run of the mill classical trumpet player who can't blow a solid high G. Not in forty years anyway.

So the bar has been set pretty high. And the average, non gifted trumpet player isn't going to develop the complete range of his instrument by starting out practicing conventional methods and materials.
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"It is surprising how skilled you can become on a very limited (trumpet) embouchure and how many years you can play on that and then how difficult it is to correct that once you find that it is tremendously limited". Bill Moriarty, 2005
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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Location: Nissa, France

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
for so many years, i played on the red, and was aware about how it limited my playing (resistance, lip swelling, etc..)
when i decided to solve this, i started to set the upper lip differently. This setting was producing a kind of roll in; it had some vantages for piano response, flex, but not for sound nor high register (at least not at the degree you're expecting from a lead player). Not to mention the back pressure it caused when i wanted to play forte !
i then tried a more roll out setting : huge sound, but too much pressure on the lips...

work on your aperture, with Bobby Shew's "yes-no" exercice, etc... Or have a lesson with him and/or go back to John first.

best
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Stanislav234
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Joined: 12 Sep 2017
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
hello
for so many years, i played on the red, and was aware about how it limited my playing (resistance, lip swelling, etc..)
when i decided to solve this, i started to set the upper lip differently. This setting was producing a kind of roll in; it had some vantages for piano response, flex, but not for sound nor high register (at least not at the degree you're expecting from a lead player). Not to mention the back pressure it caused when i wanted to play forte !
i then tried a more roll out setting : huge sound, but too much pressure on the lips...

work on your aperture, with Bobby Shew's "yes-no" exercice, etc... Or have a lesson with him and/or go back to John first.

best


I've played with rolled-out setting for the last few days and experienced the same thing. I don't think i'm going to continue to play this way and i will come back to my regular playing routine – pedal tones, tongue level exercises and so on. Maybe a little bit of a quiet playing.
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JVL
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Location: Nissa, France

PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, play quiet pp without closing nor pinching.
for me what works better, is to play as softer as i can, with the biggest aperture possible at this dynamic, maintaining the real sound and not some airy sound neither buzz sound.
the kind of whisper airy sound has some great vantages to me, only practiced once in a while. If i do it at long term, i lose the true sound and control.
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
JVL wrote:
hello
for so many years, i played on the red, and was aware about how it limited my playing (resistance, lip swelling, etc..)
when i decided to solve this, i started to set the upper lip differently. This setting was producing a kind of roll in; it had some vantages for piano response, flex, but not for sound nor high register (at least not at the degree you're expecting from a lead player). Not to mention the back pressure it caused when i wanted to play forte !
i then tried a more roll out setting : huge sound, but too much pressure on the lips...

work on your aperture, with Bobby Shew's "yes-no" exercice, etc... Or have a lesson with him and/or go back to John first.

best


I've played with rolled-out setting for the last few days and experienced the same thing. I don't think i'm going to continue to play this way and i will come back to my regular playing routine – pedal tones, tongue level exercises and so on. Maybe a little bit of a quiet playing.


That’s where I think people miss the point of BE and start to adopt a rolled in or out too soon. The book I THINK is designed to take you through all possible embouchure settings until you evolve the setting[s) that are balanced for you. I am noting changes but subtle and slight not fully rolled in or out, but toward either as necessary. I have found that the extreme roll out exercise has made it easier to drop an octave or lower cleanly, and notice when I roll in very slightly when I know a hi passage is coming I feel stronger hitting and sustaining the notes. It’s also helped me develop a slight pucker that I can integrate. I can do the rolled in squeak ( and that’s all it is) up to a above double c with absolutely no control or volume, but I can’t use it to play above the staff with any real sound, the changes that have happened to me are so slight I can’t say I ever use more than slightly rolled in or out, but the lips do move more now and the tone is very nice (for me). Be as extreme in the exercises but play with your normal embouchure the rest of the time, changes will occur as they need to. The book states a number of times it is to balance embouchure not advocate one extreme or the other.
Rod
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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Location: Nissa, France

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello Rod
my point wasn't to discuss about BE that i don't know at all.
i just shared my experience about some roll in & out settings (which were not RI & RO exercices), that i tried for solving my "playing on the red" issues.
It was an echo to the OP experience.

I'm more a "roll out" or unfurled embouchure player, but once i was able to put more top lip in the cup (even if i feel and think i'm a 1/3 top, 2/3 bottom lip), the control of the aperture, with sustain from the elevators & depressors gave the best results.
That's for me. Again, no will to discuss about a method nor book i don't know.

best
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
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Location: Nissa, France

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'll add that one thing we forgot, is the horn angle, or mpc angle setting, crucial; as the external and internal pivots.
Not only the aperture control, one must develop the best resonance or lips vibration, at the lowest dynamic.
With a long term view, i will say i prefer to stay away from too extreme whisper tones (too much airy sound), because otherwise i lose all benefits and have more negative impacts.

Last, Pop's concept of aperture tunnel is to keep in mind.

best
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