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Courtois 154r serial numbers input please?



 
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improver
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Joined: 14 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:25 am    Post subject: Courtois 154r serial numbers input please? Reply with quote

I just got a used Courtois 154r flugelhorn with serial 29376. Does anyone know when this was made? Other Courtois owners?
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astadler
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Joined: 11 Feb 2014
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Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the same model, I don't know the serial # off the top of my head, but I have not had any luck in dating it. There doesn't seem to be any sort of database of Courtois serial numbers, so unless you find someone who has one with a close number and knows the date of their horn, it will be difficult to find it. But good luck, I'll be happy if you succeed since it might help me with mine!
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thehedge
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Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran into the same issue a few years back with a Courtois Breveté Cornet (serial #56xx). The closest I could get was it was possibly early 1950s. I even contacted Courtois and they were "happy to discuss" purchasing a newer model but could not provide any information about serial numbers.
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boog
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Joined: 04 Jun 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courtois serial number lists do not exist, to my knowledge.

I have 2 Courtois (LeBlanc stencil) trumpets. One I bought new in about 1970. It is a 707 sonic Herriott model. It is mostly a museum piece these days.

The other I traded for 7 or 8 years ago, one of those "direct air column" models, I think was called (by Courtois) the "Grand Seicle" model. It plays wonderfully, is a large bore about .470, and in near-new appearance. From what research I have done, these models were made some time in the late '80's. Great horn, wide wrap like my old Connstellations.

I don't know if the Leblanc stencil horns have a different serial number sequence than the Courtois-branded models or not. There is probably no difference.

The French manufacturers seem to have made a lot of each other's horns back in the day. I have Selmers that have the signature Courtois finger hook shape, and some of the old Couesnon horns look suspiciously like all the others. I have an old Bundy that is a dead ringer for the Selmer "Balanced model" of yore, although without the ornamentation.

If you are interested, PM me and I will send you the serial numbers for a reference in your research. Please be patient for a reply, as I have a lot on my plate these days, and it may take me some time.

Regards, Dave
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scottfsmith
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been making my own list from random things .. here is a current draft from their purchase in 1917 by Gaudet when they reset the numbers to 0. This is for trumpets and I think the flugels had the same numbers. Also see https://www.horn-u-copia.net/serial/support/Courtois%20Dating.pdf which is more raw data and includes a few things that can't seem to be made to fit to any scheme so are probably incorrect. In the list below I would say plus or minus five years it is accurate.

215 1918
855 1923
1866 1927
2650 1930
3368 1937
4898 1951
5557 1956
14609 1964
16563 1965
31453 1974
53000 1977
58294 1982
86659 1990
99000 2005
100526 2010

Dave, Re: the Leblanc numbers my impression is they are the same series as the Courtois but that is just based on how things seem to line up in half a dozen or so examples I have seen. Any hard info on dates would be appreciated. I also have a Grand Siecle model, it has the warranty card still but there is no date on it!
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Last edited by scottfsmith on Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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astadler
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Joined: 11 Feb 2014
Posts: 127
Location: Little Rock, AR

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My flugel’s serial number is 22***, and when I purchased it I was told it was from the ‘70s, but I have no way of verifying. That does seem to line up with your list here, putting it in the early ‘70s so that seems to check out.
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mrhappy
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Joined: 03 Dec 2018
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Location: Port Jackson, NY

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scottfsmith... thanks for that list! I tried to figure out when my horns were born and came up with approximations that seem to line up with what you have there.

The Earliest that I have is a Flugelhorn 39xx ... that I was thinking was 37-ish (just before they shut down for the war)... looks about where your list puts it.

Cornet 60xx ... that I was thinking 50's (probably mid 50's using this list)

Trumpet 164xx (balanced model) that is looking like early 70's using this list.
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FrankM
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Joined: 11 Feb 2011
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Location: Lincolnshire England

PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scottfsmith…… my Chambord II cornet lines up with your list. Serial number 986xx puts it about 2000 which I know must be correct because my band was looking for a new Bass Trombone at that time and Fred Rhodes of Oldham, the UK importer, sent a rep. with a selection of instruments that Courtois were developing for the British market. This included a prototype Bass Bone still unfinished and covered in solder smears. Incidentally the rep. was called Hudson. He had been in partnership with Tim Oldroyd, who we now know as the maker of Geneva instruments. Cheers.
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