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"High notes aren't all that important anyway".


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joey, when you say "High G", do you mean G above High C? Thanks.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth wrote:
3-Valve:

"general audiences LOVE high notes more than anything else"

Actually, many audience members are annoyed by the extreme register of the trumpet. Nobody loves the sound of trumpet high notes more than trumpet players.
........


Agreed. Many of us trumpet players are impressed by upper register because, in part, we understand that it can be difficult to achieve, but average audience members? I think they might like a bit of extreme register sound, sort of icing on the cake, but much more than that? Probably and usually not.

Brad
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth wrote:
3-Valve:

"general audiences LOVE high notes more than anything else"

Actually, many audience members are annoyed by the extreme register of the trumpet. Nobody loves the sound of trumpet high notes more than trumpet players.
........




So picture this:

My wife's life-long best friend Rosali was visiting us for a few weeks in Germany back around 2001. She's a pro-quality clarinet player. And she is beautiful - just drop dead gorgeous. Though she is German, she spent several years living in Ireland so she speaks English with a lovely Irish brogue.

One afternoon I'm practicing my Systematic Approach Part 2 exercises (where you play arpeggios higher and higher until you reach your limit), and I'm up around Double High A or Bb and sounding good. And my ego is loving how impressive I must be sounding to Rosali. And then she comes into the room and with that lovely Irish accent says, "Well what do you want be playing those high squeaky notes for anyway?!"
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
loweredsixth wrote:
3-Valve:

"general audiences LOVE high notes more than anything else"

Actually, many audience members are annoyed by the extreme register of the trumpet. Nobody loves the sound of trumpet high notes more than trumpet players.
........




So picture this:

My wife's life-long best friend Rosali was visiting us for a few weeks in Germany back around 2001. She's a pro-quality clarinet player. And she is beautiful - just drop dead gorgeous. Though she is German, she spent several years living in Ireland so she speaks English with a lovely Irish brogue.

One afternoon I'm practicing my Systematic Approach Part 2 exercises (where you play arpeggios higher and higher until you reach your limit), and I'm up around Double High A or Bb and sounding good. And my ego is loving how impressive I must be sounding to Rosali. And then she comes into the room and with that lovely Irish accent says, "Well what do you want be playing those high squeaky notes for anyway?!"

OMG, that's funny.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP was talking about range above High G (4 ledger lines) which does take a lot of time to maintain. That may or not be worth it depending on how much time a player has to practice and hat kind of music he or she has to play.

However, someone with a strong High G/A will be able to on occasion perform DHCs. I know that personally. Unless I, along with being an azzhat, a pariah, and socially unacceptable , am an anomaly; we just aren’t going have have solid High Gs for the limit of our endurance unless we spend some time practicing notes much higher. For me personally, as I get lazy and start short changing the 5-10 minutes per day I work above High G/A, my High G/A gets less reliable. Maybe it’s different for you.

Now tastefully done high notes do indeed get a hugely positive audience reaction. While Maynard played beautifully in the upper range with power, style, and grace; we kind of get used to the high notes and they become less impactful. When Doc played a high note it was very impactful because he would build to it and use it as more of a musical accent on the line. When I listen to Maynard I am impressed. When I listed to Doc (like on A Song For You), I get chills.

Also, a complex bebobby lick that goes inside and outside of the scale is often lost on an audience, even though the Improv craftsmen are impressed. So it goes with many things in music. There are lines that please an audience and lines that impress musicians. Sometimes they are the same, sometimes not.

I played a concert last Friday. For the last nine months I have been playing lead in a local “professional community band” as was described to me. We play lots of Basie stuff and I find those long Basie shout sections stress my useable range. My wife of 32 years came along, the first time she has heard me with this band.

I got through Satin Doll pretty well and played a reasonable High F in the shout section. She thought that was okay. However, she was REALLY impressed with my flugel solo at the opening of a Nestico version of “Old Devil Moon.” It doesn’t even go above fourth space E in the staff. She also loved the rest of the arrangement which only goes to High D. Then again, it is Nestico. Several other were impressed with my lead on “Nightingale in Barkley Square”, which is a ballad that doesn’t go above top of staff G.

So I say develop and maintain the range you need and want, and it really doesn’t matter what others think about it. And above all else, SWING!!
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two kinds of trumpet players:

1. Those who can play high.

2. Those who wish they could.

Period. Anything else is a lie.
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
There are two kinds of trumpet players:

1. Those who can play high.

2. Those who wish they could.

Period. Anything else is a lie.


You're joking, right?
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These threads do keep things Tastee, don't they?

Let's try to apply this to any other instrument or voice type besides trumpet, and the question of higher/lower pretty much doesn't exist. Here's a really stark example:
Who is/was better, Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston? MC can sing probably 2 octaves higher than WH, with simply incredible control and facility, so she must be better right? Nope; I think you'll be hard-pressed to find a single fan of the 1990s/2000s pre-hip-hop style (which made these 2 famous) who thinks that. Frankly Whitney is pretty much unequivocally considered to be the pinnacle of that style/era.

I could go on and on with literally every single instrument, but perhaps we should just consider this fellow's plight:


Link


Link


Last edited by bike&ed on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen Pete do that routine live and it incorporated additional inside jokes. Funny.

Ref playing high, I've, personally, only wanted to play high enough to get across my improvisational ideas.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
There are two kinds of trumpet players:

1. Those who can play high.

2. Those who wish they could.

Period. Anything else is a lie.

In general, I think this is true. Except I know guys that can play high and most of them wish they could play higher.

Being able to play higher usually (not always) means better stamina. Together these open up playing opportunities. The big caveat here being that range is only one piece of the puzzle.

And add me to those that get annoyed when a soloist unleashes a largely artless high note riff and the audience explodes with appreciation.
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="John Mohan"]
loweredsixth wrote:
3-Valve:

"general audiences LOVE high notes more than anything else"

Actually, many audience members are annoyed by the extreme register of the trumpet. Nobody loves the sound of trumpet high notes more than trumpet players.
........


My experience says audiences generally react positively to high note trumpet when played in context. It creates a visceral response. How many times have you seen a trumpet section come out front to trade and the lead player compensates for his relative lack of ability to improvise by going into the upper register. 9 times out of 10 he gets the biggest positive crowd reaction, usually to the chagrin of the rest of the section, especially the guy in the jazz chair. Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. Pay particular attention starting at the 2:50 mark when Cat starts to air it out. The guys trading with him aren't slouches, yet the crowd roars when he goes north of DHC.


Link

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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
Pay particular attention starting at the 2:50 mark when Cat starts to air it out. The guys trading with him aren't slouches, yet the crowd roars when he goes north of DHC.


Link


Clark Terry was definitely no slouch! Love this clip--for all the players, and yes, I like high notes. But Clark--wow.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a recording of El Gato on cassette tape, which I must have listened to thousands of times during high school. My teacher at the time had heard the Ellington band live, and though he also preferred Clark Terry (who I was lucky enough to play a nervous, fumbling flugel solo with also while in HS), he said Cat's high register was phenomenally loud, "like a train whistle."
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, another thing about Cat Anderson though, not to argue against high-note specialists getting most of the glory to the listeners, is that I've heard Cat play some pretty nice musical ideas, ie. I've heard him include some solid musicality in some of his solos, not just high-note tricks.

To agree with the above posts though, from the audiences stand point, I used to get pretty annoyed when, as a sax player trying to come up with good ideas, I would watch the trumpet player get most of the glory just by playing high and wiggling his fingers.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
...
To agree with the above posts though, from the audiences stand point, I used to get pretty annoyed when, as a sax player trying to come up with good ideas, I would watch the trumpet player get most of the glory just by playing high and wiggling his fingers.

-----------------------------------------
The audience appreciation for flashy playing (high, or fast, etc.) is usually not for the 'musical result', but for the excitement of watching someone attempt and SUCCEED in taking the risk.

Jay
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
...
To agree with the above posts though, from the audiences stand point, I used to get pretty annoyed when, as a sax player trying to come up with good ideas, I would watch the trumpet player get most of the glory just by playing high and wiggling his fingers.

-----------------------------------------
The audience appreciation for flashy playing (high, or fast, etc.) is usually not for the 'musical result', but for the excitement of watching someone attempt and SUCCEED in taking the risk.

Jay


Maybe in some cases, but I don’t think the average audience member has a clue as to what it takes to play around double C or above, so I don’t really think that the audience even realizes it IS a risk.

Brad
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
...
To agree with the above posts though, from the audiences stand point, I used to get pretty annoyed when, as a sax player trying to come up with good ideas, I would watch the trumpet player get most of the glory just by playing high and wiggling his fingers.

-----------------------------------------
The audience appreciation for flashy playing (high, or fast, etc.) is usually not for the 'musical result', but for the excitement of watching someone attempt and SUCCEED in taking the risk.

Jay


Maybe in some cases, but I don’t think the average audience member has a clue as to what it takes to play around double C or above, so I don’t really think that the audience even realizes it IS a risk.

Brad


Not so sure about that. A couple years ago the audience went wild when I played a nice DHC at the end of Count Bubba. Then again it was an audience of music students.......
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
And above all else, SWING!!


Hey, the last time I saw you posting here you seemed resigned to never being able to swing or play jazz. Several of us tried encouraging you; I'm very glad to hear of your progress!!

Before I ever got to play lead in a jazz band it had been pounded into me that timing, intonation, tone, attitude and STYLE were all needed and that without those high notes would never have a use.

Played a 4 hour show Saturday, perhaps the best this band has ever played. I rarely get to play in the staff. Crowd goes gaga for those big endings ... of course I design the shows so that they come at tasteful points
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
INTJ wrote:
And above all else, SWING!!


Hey, the last time I saw you posting here you seemed resigned to never being able to swing or play jazz. Several of us tried encouraging you; I'm very glad to hear of your progress!!

Before I ever got to play lead in a jazz band it had been pounded into me that timing, intonation, tone, attitude and STYLE were all needed and that without those high notes would never have a use.

Played a 4 hour show Saturday, perhaps the best this band has ever played. I rarely get to play in the staff. Crowd goes gaga for those big endings ... of course I design the shows so that they come at tasteful points


Tasteful big endings with a screaming trumpet are as satisfying to a lead player as nailing a complicated improv bebop lick for a soloist.

Last year I almost quit trumpet as I thought I had peaked. Then in one of Nick Ds Blogs he talked about the book “Peak” by Anders Ericsson. I bought and read the book. Ericsson demonstrates how there is no such thing as “natural talent” and explains how all skills are learned through “deliberate practice”. He also explained that while it is easier to learn things before puberty, there is no limit to the age at which we can learn and develop.

So, in true INTJ fashion, I analyzed and critiqued his ideas and found them sound. I have a couple personal examples of where I achieved a high skill level—flying jets and competition shooting, and I can see how the areas where I am most skilled are the areas where I engaged in the most deliberate practice.

I tools stock of my trumpet playing since I came back in 2001, and saw that my strongest skills—intonation, range, tone—were the ones where I have engaged in the most deliberate practice. It’s not that I didn’t spend significant time on style, improv, and reading; it’s just I had really engaged in those areas via deliberate practice.

So a year of deliberate practice in style and reading has yielded noticeable results. I still need another hour of endurance for playing lead on Basie charts, and that happens—like it always does—of learning to play more and more efficiently.

And I still eat too many carbs.........
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, look even on American Idol, the crowds go wild when a singer goes big toward the end of a tune and sings the high notes.

And the judges have commented on that many times, going for the big notes.

Basses (males) and altos (females) wish they could do it. They can't, so they stay within themselves, but you know they wish they could do it.
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