Purchased Olds Super.. cracked bell rim, no ring when flicke

[Longshot]

Hello, I need some advice. I've been away from brass instruments for about 15 years (played trombone growing up). My father is looking to get back into trumpet after many years and I decided to take the journey with him.

I found a 1949 LA Olds Super in perfect condition and decided to negotiate a deal (I paid $750). When I met the seller I checked the trumpet out and it a single dent or nick. He played a few notes and it sounded fine to my ears (I have no lip at the moment). After he handed it back to me, I noticed a small crack in the rolled bell rim. I pointed it out to him and he said that it's just the bell bead and that it's normal. I took his word and paid him. My ignorance and stupidity have put me in a conundrum.

Got home, took zoomed in shots and spoke to multiple brass repair shops that said it is indeed a crack in the bell. They said that if it doesn't rattle or anything that the trumpet should be fine and it's likely just cosmetic. They even said that if I showed them this trumpet with this one crack and asked if I should buy it, they both said absolutely... and that it was a very good deal.

The third shop I called said the same, but to flick the bell to see if it rings. Unfortunately it does not really ring (unless I listen closely, which is a short ring). My dad's Olds Recording has a ring when flicked.

I called back one of the shops who said it was a steal and he said, nope.. bad bell, get your money back.

Upon further research, I have found a few forum post where the Olds Super (without cracked bell rim) didnt ring either. This model has a silver "Tone Ring" which might affect the ringing of the bell when flicked, so I'm starting to think it still might be worth keeping... I am WAY out of my league now and need help from you guys. Does anyone here have an Olds Super with a bell that does ring? Should I keep this horn?

Here's some pictures of the crack
https://imgur.com/a/KvHcawh

Here's some pictures of the trumpet
https://imgur.com/a/yAUK1ce

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have posted this on another forum to get the question to as many as possible. Thank you[/url]

[digs]

I have a 1946 Super with a brass tone ring. The bell does not ring. I think you are ok.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

"The proof is in the pudding"--how does it sound? Maybe you're planning it as a surprise for dad, but have him try it out.

I feel like I may have seen that trumpet for sale--did you buy it in NJ?

I hope it works out for you. I'd say you'd be in your rights to ask to return it, but also that it's probably not in such bad condition that you've thrown your money away. Good luck!

[steevo]

A few thoughts:

1. For me, as long as it played (and the price was right) I would not be overly concerned about that crack. It can be repaired.

2. There is no substitute for an in-person evaluation. Photos are one thing, but I would have the trumpet looked at by reputable tech.

3. The myth of the ring - not a JRR Tolkien novel. The notion being able to evaluate how a trumpet will play based on tapping the bell and seeing how the bell rings has been proven (to me, at least) as a wives tale. I have played great horns and dogs where there was zero correlation between how the bell responded to a tap. The only result that matters is how it plays to you. By the way, the tone ring on the Olds Super will most likely make the bell more dead to a tap.

[yourbrass]

@ Longshot
You're fine, this won't hurt anything. And forget about "ring," it's irrelevant to the way the horn plays.

The tone ring on the Super is nickel that has been rolled under the ring in making the bell. I know this because I tried removing one once! So you have more reinforcement there than most bells do.

If it really bothers you, the crack could be cleaned with acid and soft solder run into it. I did this with an old Conn I restored - there's a color difference, but so what? Otherwise it could be patched and that's more visible.

Relax and play the horn!
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[jondrowjf@gmail.com]

Before any repair, play it for awhile. Give it a through cleaning. Experiment with different mouthpieces, different valve oils and slide greases.

The vintage trumpets have character and their quirks. The Olds trumpets were built to high standards,

Enjoy your trumpet and keep us informed about your progress.
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Yamaha 2330 cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold mouthpiece
Getzen 4 B mouthpiece
Yamaha 11 e mouthpiece
Bach 5 B mouthpiece

[A.N.A.Mendez]

[JetJaguar]

There has been discussion of Live bell vs Dead bell. A dead bell doesn't ring when you tap it. It's not supposed to. My current Super Recording doesn't ring. It's every bit a Super Recording. My former Courtois IV did ring when tapped. It was kind of a sluggish horn. It didn't care if anyone played it. It was happy to lie in its case. If it were a Hungarian actress, it would be Zsa Zsa Gabor.
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I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
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[Evinerate]

Yeah, it doesn't look too bad in the photos and like others have said, you can have that part filled with solder or some type of solder patch as long as it is done professionally, it wouldn't be too noticeable.

[Bloo42]

That's a fantastic trumpet and it will serve you well.
If it sounds good and it moves, then it is good.
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I play....
Eastman Tenor Trombone (Gold)
Bach 50K Bass Trombone (Gold)
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Conn 22B ('37) Trumpet (Silver)
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King F-Horn (Silver)
Selmer Mark VI Alto Sax (Gold)

[Longshot]

Thanks for all the replies. I just didnt want to be ripped off. It's either this trumpet with the crack or who knows....something similar with dents and dings for less.

I guess another way to ask the question: If I told you I was looking to buy this trumpet with the crack in the bell (at $750), would you say to keep looking or snag it up? Seems the consensus would be to buy it regardless.

Yes HaveTrumpetWillTravel, I purchased it in New Jersey.

Again, I appreciate all the quick advice you guys have given. I'm glad this forum exist. =)

[OldSchoolEuph]

[J. Landress Brass]

It has been my experience that if the bead is cracked it either needs to be patched or brazed as just running soft solder to fill will not be strong enough and if the bell receives any trauma the soft solder will fail and the crack will reopen.
_________________
Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com

[OldSchoolEuph]

[Bb Bob]

My 53 LA Super will ring when I flick my index finger inside the bell.

Sorry to hear about your purchase. Maybe one of the brass repair specialists can braze it to fill it in.

Good luck!

Bob
_________________
Trumpets: Edwards X13, ACB Copernicus, Benge CG, Olds LA Studio ‘53
Cornets: Adams CN2, Wild Thing Short, Olds Studio ‘58, Schilke XA7
Flugelhorn: Kanstul 1525

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I'm pretty sure I know the guy who sold it and we played in a band together. He has a lot of trumpets and I think is always buying and selling them just because he loves playing different trumpets. I think he's a decent guy and would probably take it back. That said, to me it looks like it's in good shape for its age.

[yourbrass]

Brazing is a high temperature operation. I might try it on one of my own horns, but not a customer's horn in that particular location. If there was any soft solder used to fasten the tone ring, or garland, it will crystallize in the high temp operation with unknown results.

Generally those bells are really hard metal, tank-like, and it would take a hard hit to undo a properly-done soft solder joint. That's what it took to crack it in the first place!

My 2p.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[patdublc]

Lots of good and interesting information here. That said, my advice is to do what Josh Landress said. Josh is in the royalty class of brass repair. I recommend him without reservation.
_________________
Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.

[J. Landress Brass]

[Bb Bob]

Found this earlier post (2007) that gives a little more info . . .

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=71696
_________________
Trumpets: Edwards X13, ACB Copernicus, Benge CG, Olds LA Studio ‘53
Cornets: Adams CN2, Wild Thing Short, Olds Studio ‘58, Schilke XA7
Flugelhorn: Kanstul 1525