Rim Diameter vs. Rim Profile

[J-Walk]

I’ve been thinking lately about how obsessed we can get with manufacturer specs on rim sizes. As trumpeters we so often ask for size comparisons when we are considering new mouthpieces, but after years of mouthpiece safaris, gigging, and learning, I wish someone had guided me to the importance of rim contour as a younger player.

Finding the right rim contour to interface with my chops and dental structure has been the single most critical equipment parameter to advance my development over the years.

Backbores, cup shape, even the horn itself, all take a backseat to the importance of the rim contour in my experience. Just my thought for today. Do any others feel the same way?
_________________
Jason Rahn
——————
Burbank Benge MLP 3X+
Adams A5
Larson Brasswerks “Reese” Model C
Schilke P5-4 picc
Courtois 154 flugel
A few mouthpieces that fit my face and horns

[Troy Sargent]

100% agree.

I think part of the "problem" is that most companies have one "stock" rim contour that is the easiest to find (or the others require special order). For instance, I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen a Bach W mouthpiece in a store (always a 7EW for piccolo it seems). Add to that the fact that most "big box" music stores only have one or two brands of mouthpiece available it makes it difficult to find what you like or to even discover what is out there.

The only way I have been able to try different rim shapes is to play things from different manufactures. I've tried Bach, Yamaha, Stomvi, Warburton, Parke, Curry, Kanstul, and who knows how many others. When you can do this it becomes possible to find something that really "fits your lips" so to speak. I found what I like rim wise in the GR Standard rims (which I then have reeves cut off and make an underpart to match). However, I'm also lucky enough to have NAMM basically in my backyard every year which has allowed me to try a LOT of equipment and Reeves a reasonable driving distance to allow me to experiment. I was also lucky to find a rim shape that really works for me pretty early into my undergraduate career.

Once you find the "rim that fits" you can play other contours but you can tell something is off or weird. Its a strange experience to be sure especially when they have the same / similar diameter. I think the best analogy is if the mouthpiece diameter is the shoe size the rim contour is the arch support. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100% there but when you get it right you will never go back. Horrible analogy but it gets the point across I think.
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www.tsargentmusic.com

[Seymor B Fudd]

[JayKosta]

The rim size & contour is very important for comfort (and to avoid injury) if the player has teeth or lip issues. In that situation finding a workable rim is critical. A player should not try, or be forced, to 'tough it out' with a rim that actually hurts or injures the lips.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[kehaulani]

Isn't the rim diameter the length of the opening while the rim contour is the point of contact on the rim?

I've had mouthpieces who both have the same opening sizes but one feels larger (or smaller) than the other.

As a shopper, it would be more helpful to me to know how wide/small it actually feels rather than its physical width measurement.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[TKSop]

[Tpt_Guy]

[gabriel127]

The big question regarding rim diameter is:

Where is the manufacturer measuring from? Are they measuring from high spot to high spot on the rim, or, are they measuring from where the cup officially meets the rim, or, are they measuring from a bite point which is slightly down from the top plane of the rim?

The ISO (International Standards Organization) has not put out any rules of standardization on trumpet mouthpiece measurements that govern where the actual cup diameter is measured to and from, which explains why mouthpieces from different manufacturers that are reported to have the same diameter can feel significantly different. (The part about the ISO is tongue-in-cheek, they couldn't possibly give a rip about trumpet playing)

But back to the topic of the OP's comment.......rim contours can make a huge difference. Search on YouTube for interviews of Wayne Bergeron. In one of his interviews, actually he's told the story on several interviews, including on his Bob Reeves "Other Side of the Bell" podcast at 57:35 into the interview, he tells of how Willie Murillo and GR mouthpieces saved his career.

It's very interesting listening that sheds light on this topic.

[kehaulani]

All of that considerable info. above, notwithstanding, what would it take to have the mouthpiece makers have the same, standard designation across the board? Would make a starting point for consumers easier.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[gabriel127]

There is some standardization. They measure in millimeters, inches, or both. Different contours are going to make those measurements feel different.

Some mouthpieces don't even have that inner "bite" that is below the top plane. But when it's there, that's what you feel. So even if there was a rule that said you have to measure from the top plane edge, the player is still going to feel it from where that bite is. So trying to standardize this doesn't really help the issue.

At some point, you just have to get close to the size that you like and then try them all out and see what works best.

[spitvalve]

[delano]

[J-Walk]

[Tpt_Guy]

[Vin DiBona]

GR tried get manufacturers to use a standardized measurement on the actual width of the mouthpiece from the high point on the rim to an exact depth down.
Here is the diagram.
https://www.grmouthpieces.com/category-s/237.htm

Marcinkiewicz follows this and I think Curry does too.

Manufacturers had no intention of using this measurement. Probably because they couldn't or wouldn't understand the mathematics. Math does not lie. It is the one constant in the universe.
It may feel "different" on the lips which could be due to a number of other parameters, but at least there would be one standard in place.
R Tomasek

[TKSop]

[spitvalve]

[JVL]

Going in the sense of TKsop, the Marcinkiewicz Ingram'ID given 16.54mm feels to me like a Bach 10 3/4 given at 15.75mm.

the Marc. Shew given at 16.81mm is given in Yamaha for the Shew lead at 16.54mm

[J-Walk]

Even as this thread develops, it is interesting how is has begun to focus to the issue of somehow standardizing rim measurements among manufacturers. I agree with those that suggest that doing so is a moot point.

For example, even GR rims of the same diameter feel completely different based on high point, thickness, bite, etc. I have play tested a variety of the GR rim contours in the same diameter, and they do not “feel” like they are the same size. In fact, the rim contour on the different GR rims of the same diameter make each piece feel, wider, more narrow, deeper, shallower, etc. Add to this the dental structure of a player and it is useless to focus on i.d. and o.d. alone.

I still suggest that contour and how it fits each individual’s face is far more important than worrying about diameter. In my case, diameter is secondary to finding a rim shape that does not impinge or unnecessarily fatigue my chops. My all around mouthpiece is around a .665 diameter, while my commercial piece is around a .625; but the rim shapes on both assist me in playing without impinging my embouchure. The Bach 7C, 5C, 3C, 3B, and the 1.5C rims I progressed through as a young player years ago were detrimental to my development. Improper technique, excessive pressure, and lip damage ensued. These are industry standard mouthpieces that work great for many players, but not all, especially not me.

For those of us that teach younger students, we need to be much more open minded and educated on how to fit developing players with compatible equipment.
_________________
Jason Rahn
——————
Burbank Benge MLP 3X+
Adams A5
Larson Brasswerks “Reese” Model C
Schilke P5-4 picc
Courtois 154 flugel
A few mouthpieces that fit my face and horns

[Al Innella]

A mouthpiece's I.D. is a starting point,but the rim contour(flat,round) and the rim's high point, determines how big it will actually feel when playing.That's why different manufacturers can have mouthpieces which measure the same but can feel so different on your lips.