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MLB Horns Don’t Play In Tune


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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes, I agree with OldSchoolEuph - seeing how easy new horns are to play when compared to 20, 30 year old counterparts is really impressive - which why I am saving my money towards new horns and not vintage ones, actually. Although - occasionally a vintage horn comes along that cannot be missed
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Okay “to a degree is correct”. Much more okay on 35 minutes concerts that two hour concerts.

The WT with a tight 25 Leadpipe still plays in tune for me as did the tighter still Bach 72/43 LB. I hunk it’s something I am hearing.....

Also, I should have mentioned that I have been taking lessons from Pops since 2002 as well as local pros and an other pros to include: Jim Manley, Mark Zauss, Roger Ingrahm.


I think I fell into that one! I know that when my intonation is off, it is me and. Th way I am blowing that is causing it. Usually, this is true of students who go all over the place pitch wise. It’s only rarely that the instrument is a problem. Even one of my favourite horns, which seemed to go insanely sharp in the upper register has been behaving itself recently... I can only blame myself for it’s past quirky ness.
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J-Walk
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience is that LB horns are generally more forgiving with wider slots, and a little easier to play lower on the pitch. They are also more difficult for me to produce the most resonant and efficient sound with. Endurance is more of a challenge for me on a larger bore trumpet. Likewise, small bore trumpets are a little too resistant for me in most cases. That also affects my ability to play with a relaxed and efficient sound. Add to all of this mouthpiece specifications which have a significant impact on all of these matters as well.

Whichever bore size works best for someone to play with the best sound would be the best for size for that player in my opinion. As far as tuning goes, I think many players ignore one of the most crucial parameters that impacts tuning on any size horn: mouthpiece gap.

Finding the appropriate mouthpiece, mouthpiece gap, and horn for a given player can be a real game changer. The whole setup and how it interacts with the player is important. Everything affects everything. I think the way a horn blows and sounds may have less to do with bore size, and more to do with the combination of all of the different parameters involved.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
INTJ wrote:
Okay “to a degree is correct”. Much more okay on 35 minutes concerts that two hour concerts.

The WT with a tight 25 Leadpipe still plays in tune for me as did the tighter still Bach 72/43 LB. I hunk it’s something I am hearing.....

Also, I should have mentioned that I have been taking lessons from Pops since 2002 as well as local pros and an other pros to include: Jim Manley, Mark Zauss, Roger Ingrahm.


I think I fell into that one! I know that when my intonation is off, it is me and. Th way I am blowing that is causing it. Usually, this is true of students who go all over the place pitch wise. It’s only rarely that the instrument is a problem. Even one of my favourite horns, which seemed to go insanely sharp in the upper register has been behaving itself recently... I can only blame myself for it’s past quirky ness.


I am assuming that it’s me and how I am hearing sound. The question is whether or not it’s worth trying to resolve? It’s not that I am making a massive effort to be able to play little horns, but I wonder as I learn to play with less and less tension if I will eventually be able to play a little horn?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Andy Del wrote:
INTJ wrote:
Okay “to a degree is correct”. Much more okay on 35 minutes concerts that two hour concerts.

The WT with a tight 25 Leadpipe still plays in tune for me as did the tighter still Bach 72/43 LB. I hunk it’s something I am hearing.....

Also, I should have mentioned that I have been taking lessons from Pops since 2002 as well as local pros and an other pros to include: Jim Manley, Mark Zauss, Roger Ingrahm.


I think I fell into that one! I know that when my intonation is off, it is me and. Th way I am blowing that is causing it. Usually, this is true of students who go all over the place pitch wise. It’s only rarely that the instrument is a problem. Even one of my favourite horns, which seemed to go insanely sharp in the upper register has been behaving itself recently... I can only blame myself for it’s past quirky ness.


I am assuming that it’s me and how I am hearing sound. The question is whether or not it’s worth trying to resolve? It’s not that I am making a massive effort to be able to play little horns, but I wonder as I learn to play with less and less tension if I will eventually be able to play a little horn?


For me, the answer was "yes." Two things helped me get to where I could play the WT efficiently with resonance AND play the ML horns without getting beat up by them.

1) I learned to play on Flip's Extreme Flugelhorn mouthpiece as quietly as I possibly could. This gave me resonance like I've never had before and helped me to find the connection between solid support (not high air pressure) and a relaxed compression-based embouchure.

2) I learned to play with resonance down below F#. The gap from low F# to pedal C has to be played with a proper embouchure in order to achieve resonance in those false-tones. The lip muscles outside of the mouthpiece rim must clamp against each other while the lips inside the rim remain relaxed and slightly rolled out, getting the soft tissues to buzz. Taking that embouchure set into the normal range then gave me much more resonance and complexity to my tone, used much less air flow and air pressure, and greatly reduced the amount of mechanical pressure required to seal the lips against the mouthpiece rim.

These things together surprised me in that they improved my experience with every horn I played. Even the small ones.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
An interesing comparison, but I think hard to make conclusions without knowing the specs of the mouthpieces used.

As an example with my LB trumpet(s) I find that if I use a mouthpiece that has a larger throat, the very same pitch issues that you're writing about decline. If I use my standard 3C on my LB C trumpet the upper register is a touch low and the low register tends to be high (compressed octaves) - open the throat a touch and this improves (as well as other aspects)
Then there is the issue of what you're used to - if you've been playing large bore instruments primarily, and pick up a smaller bore, understandably you won't be "blowing" in a matching manner. I suspect that after some time (days/weeks) and maybe a slight adjustment in mouthpiece setup this tendancy doesn't exist.

Bore size is only one aspect of a trumpets build; design (gap, bracing, lead pipe specs, materials, weight, etc will vary with bore size as well)


This is correct, IMO. The mouthpiece is almost everything - if it doesn't match the horn, you're just going to struggle.

I have a number of ML Bb's of various brands, and I go through a process of different mouthpieces and sleeve adjustments before I get to the best intonation, tone, and feel. Then I forget about equipment and play.

I also have two really large bore trumpets (Schilke X4B, Conn28B) and with the right 'piece, they're easy to play, and fun!
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
INTJ wrote:


I am assuming that it’s me and how I am hearing sound. The question is whether or not it’s worth trying to resolve? It’s not that I am making a massive effort to be able to play little horns, but I wonder as I learn to play with less and less tension if I will eventually be able to play a little horn?


For me, the answer was "yes." Two things helped me get to where I could play the WT efficiently with resonance AND play the ML horns without getting beat up by them.

1) I learned to play on Flip's Extreme Flugelhorn mouthpiece as quietly as I possibly could. This gave me resonance like I've never had before and helped me to find the connection between solid support (not high air pressure) and a relaxed compression-based embouchure.

2) I learned to play with resonance down below F#. The gap from low F# to pedal C has to be played with a proper embouchure in order to achieve resonance in those false-tones. The lip muscles outside of the mouthpiece rim must clamp against each other while the lips inside the rim remain relaxed and slightly rolled out, getting the soft tissues to buzz. Taking that embouchure set into the normal range then gave me much more resonance and complexity to my tone, used much less air flow and air pressure, and greatly reduced the amount of mechanical pressure required to seal the lips against the mouthpiece rim.

These things together surprised me in that they improved my experience with every horn I played. Even the small ones.


Hmmm. I can play from low f# down an octave with resonance. I also can play the didgeridoo. I think this is less a physical thing than it is a mental thing.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
zaferis wrote:
An interesing comparison, but I think hard to make conclusions without knowing the specs of the mouthpieces used.

As an example with my LB trumpet(s) I find that if I use a mouthpiece that has a larger throat, the very same pitch issues that you're writing about decline. If I use my standard 3C on my LB C trumpet the upper register is a touch low and the low register tends to be high (compressed octaves) - open the throat a touch and this improves (as well as other aspects)
Then there is the issue of what you're used to - if you've been playing large bore instruments primarily, and pick up a smaller bore, understandably you won't be "blowing" in a matching manner. I suspect that after some time (days/weeks) and maybe a slight adjustment in mouthpiece setup this tendancy doesn't exist.

Bore size is only one aspect of a trumpets build; design (gap, bracing, lead pipe specs, materials, weight, etc will vary with bore size as well)


This is correct, IMO. The mouthpiece is almost everything - if it doesn't match the horn, you're just going to struggle.

I have a number of ML Bb's of various brands, and I go through a process of different mouthpieces and sleeve adjustments before I get to the best intonation, tone, and feel. Then I forget about equipment and play.

I also have two really large bore trumpets (Schilke X4B, Conn28B) and with the right 'piece, they're easy to play, and fun!


Interesting idea on the mouthpiece, and I don’t disagree. When I went from ML to LB horns I also went from 27 to 25 throats and tighter backbores and did find optimum gap for each horn. Maybe I just need a MUCH more open MP for the small horns?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you alter the venturii of the mouthpiece, you change the actual physical pressure (back pressure) against the embouchure. This has a direct effect on the muscles, on skin tension, and thus how the embouchure functions. (This real pressure is a rather minor difference, but is completely different from the perceived backpressure we associate with "resistance" - the amount of energy required to achieve the goal).

This will also alter the actual volumetric flow through the instrument which will have interesting interactions with disruptions in the raceway wall ranging from pulled slides to dents. That in turn will impact the energy requirements for given playing actions and the perceived "resistance".

This is thus a very personal thing in that everyone's physiology and desired "resistance" are unique to them.
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