Help Me: 70 Benge Burbank, Getzen 700, 30s King Liberty?

[jdmcs]

I am a former middle school trumpet player getting back into playing the trumpet as an adult. I currently have a student trumpet, and can tell I am going to quickly outgrow a student trumpet.

I have a budget of around $500 for a better trumpet, and have found the following three choices in that range:

1. A 1970 Benge Burbank brass lacquered instrument. This one is being sold by my local instrument repair shop, and I trust his description of the condition (plus, I can try it first).

Here’s the relevant part of his description: “While reassembling the trumpet I checked the compression of the valves and it is great. It's as good as any new trumpet that I have seen. I was, as you might imagine, pleasantly surprised. The instrument is a bit cosmetically challenged but it plays great. If you are looking for a pristine show piece then this is not your horn. However, I you want a horn that plays great then This Is Your Horn!“

2. A Getzen Eterna Trumpet Model 700. It’s being offered by an online Getzen dealer with a 1 year warranty.

3. A 1930-35 Bb/A King Liberty Model, silver plated. It’s from an online seller that I have dealt with before, and the instrument appears to be in excellent condition... except that the valves themselves appear to be tan and not silver-ish in color. Here’s a relevant part of the Seller’s description:

“The plating is nearly perfect and there are no significant dings or dents. In fact, there really are very minimal, if any, small dings or dents. The only plating issue is a little discoloration on the end of the leadpipe and the gold plating inside the bell is very much thinning.
Every single piece on this instrument that is intended to move does in fact move freely, right down to the tiniest 3rd valve slide screw. All the valves amd slides have been oiled and greased. The valves are VERY responsive and the springs have a lot of life left in them!”

Please note that I have nothing against antique instruments. I own a 1920s Wurlitzer Valve Trombone, and do occasionally pull it out to try to play it. (Yeah, I need to get my embouchure back first...) But I know older instruments might have valve plating issues, like my valve trombone does have, and I don’t necessarily know what all valve plating types look like.

Anyways, I need some opinions. Are any of these better or worse deals at around $500? (I might be able to negotiate the price of the Getzen and the Liberty down if they’re overpriced at $500.) Would one of these outlast the others? Or am I crazy at the idea of a $500 upgrade?

[Liberty Lips]

Which model Benge is it? If it's a 2x, 3x or 5x it's probably going to work well for you, but the large bore 6x might be something that you might not acclimate to very well (unless you like that sort of thing).

I've never played a King Liberty, but they have a really good reputation. But with an instrument that old as your primary horn, unanticipated problems could crop up that might not be easily repaired.

The Getzen Eterna 700 is a good horn, but it's not one of the top-of-the-line Getzens. If I were in your position, I would choose the Benge.

Based on your descriptions, I wouldn't say any of the horns are overpriced.

[jdmcs]

[jdmcs]

In case it helps anyone, here are pictures of the three used horns in question.

The Benge:


The Getzen:


The King:

[Brad361]

[HERMOKIWI]

The Benge is the best horn by far. In the Burbank years these were very low production handmade instruments.

The horn is going to be either a medium large (.460) bore (marked ML on the second valve casing), a medium large plus (.464) bore (marked MLP on the second valve casing) or a large (.468) bore (marked L on the second valve casing). You don't need to be afraid of an MLP or L bore. These horns are easy to play.

If the horn is marked ML or MLP then the bell taper will be stamped on the ferrule between the first valve casing and where the bell enters the first valve casing. The number will be 2, 3 or 5. "2" designates an ultra bright sounding bell, "3" designates a standard sounding bell and "5" designates a darker sounding bell. The horns marked "L" will not have a bell number stamped into the ferrule.

New horns which are in the quality category of what Burbank Benges were when they were new are priced over $3,000 today.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[jdmcs]

I just sent an email to my repair guy asking if he still has the Benge for sale. It might be flawed cosmetically, but if it really is a 1970 Benge, then it's probably a deal at his asking price. Plus, I'll know that I won't have to spend any additional $$$ getting it to playable condition.

Whie I appreciate that my Wurlitzer Valve Trombone is silver plated, I'm totally happy at the prospect of rocking brass lacquered brass. Sound is more important to me than the color or cosmetic condition of the horn.

[Goldplate]

I would buy the Benge. I have a Getzen 700 and it is a good horn for the money, but is not in the same league as the Benge. I look at the pictures you posted of the King, and I don't like the look of the valves. My King Liberty has chrome plated valves. Maybe it is the lighting makes the valves in the picture look copper, but I would be afraid of having to have a valve job done on that horn.

[Liberty Lips]

Although the King is a very interesting horn, if it were my primary playing instrument I would be very frustrated by the fact that there is no first valve throw for intonation adjustment. That, and the possibility that a valve job might be in order, would lead me toward the Benge. Let us know what model of Benge it is, but even if it's a 6x large bore it might play well for you.

[qcm]

I'd go with Benge, unless the lead pipe has red rot. Otherwise I'd go with the Getzen.

-Dave
_________________
Dave Edwards

Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc.

[OldSchoolEuph]

Of all the Liberty models, the early one is my favorite - and one of the best White made. The valves show remarkably little use (judging by the guides and slots) as does the finish - and that is a bit of a concern as good horns usually get played a lot. Regardless, while it is probably a very nice horn, you are looking for a daily driver and few 80+ year old horns suit that need.

I can't mentally put the Getzen in the same set with the other two. I would have that as last on my list.

The Benge looks solid, and has the wear you expect on a good horn - not abuse, just wear from being played a lot. If I had to choose from name and photo only, I would bet on the Benge.

Go play the Benge. If you like it, don't let it out of your hands. If you don't, keep looking for another you can try out first.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[HERMOKIWI]

[kehaulani]

I would go for the Benge but I'd check the lead pipe for red rot. But even if it has red rot, I wouldn't overreact. If it doesn't affect playabiluty, I wouldn't worry about it.

If you do get the Benge and feel a need to replace the lead pipe, Jim Becker at Osmun will do right by you.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[jdmcs]

I have scheduled an appointment to see the Benge tomorrow. I'll make sure to take my checkbook. It's either that or a credit card surcharge.

I just about thought with my eyes only and made an offer on the King Liberty that the seller would have probably accepted. As many of you correctly figured, I have money for one good used horn and need a daily driver, not a special horn for special occasions.

To OldSchoolEuph's point, the King Liberty is a gorgeous horn, but barring a re-plate/re-lacquer job, I had not thought about how you keep an 80 year old trumpet in such excellent condition... though something does seem odd about those valves.

Thank you all for reminding me that good horns do show wear from use.

[yourbrass]

A King Liberty from that long ago is problematic. There are at least two players I've seen that swear by them, but in general, they are not a modern horn, which would serve you well.

My 2p,
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[blbaumgarn]

I hope you had a good trial on the Burbank. I believe and that is MHO that the Benge is the best of the three if you want an everyday driver. Getzens are usually built like tanks and stand the years well, but a 700 is considered an intermediate horn. They are good horns, though. I haven't played a King since 1968 so my opinion would be jaded by too much time. Good Luck.
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush

[Dayton]

The first consideration is which horn works better for you. The only way to know is to try the horns. In the case of the Benge, I didn't see mention of a model number. it could be a 3X ML, 3X MLP, 5X ML or a 6X (XL) -- I think those were the only models made in Burbank, but could be mistaken. Big differences between some of those models, so even though they are fine "pro model" horns, the particular model may not be well suited for you.

Another consideration is the condition of the horn. A full valve overhaul can be rather expensive ($600?), and even replacing and remounting a leadpipe could cost you over $200. So when you compare the prices, consider the cost of making the horn work as it should. [Removing dents and dings is usually pretty inexpensive.] I would say that if the valves are not fast and smooth, with good compression, when you try the horn it is a warning sign of potentially expensive problems. Also, if cosmetic condition really matters to you consider that the cost of buffing and then replating or relacquering can also be rather high.

I've owned LA-era Benges and thought they were terrific horns. The Burbank era horns are often considered to be even better. I have a Getzen 700 Eterna II that I use as my backup and travel horn. In fact I did a July 4th concert in the part with that horn. I would unhesitatingly recommend it.

Good luck!

[jdmcs]

I tried and bought the Benge. I didn't think twice as I wrote the check for $500. (Other than to make sure I didn't make a stupid error writing said check when I realized there was only one check left in the book!)

Physically, the Benge has "patina" from being played, as well as signs of professional repair to the bell. I'm OK with that. I'm not concerned about the physical appearance. My trumpet instructor agreed with me that this Benge sounds good and that I paid a fair price.

Mechanically, the valves are in great shape. I bought the Benge from my instrument repair shop, and they tested the compression as being as good as a new trumpet. I agree with their assessment.

The only issue is that my Yamaha mouthpiece doesn't fit... but it seems as if that mouthpiece is to blame (it's slightly out of round). Fortunately, I'm quickly adjusting to the Bach 5C clone mouthpiece that came with the Benge.

[OldSchoolEuph]

If you were comfortable on the Yamaha, try a Schilke. The numbers don't align, but the morphology is the same as Yamaha while Bach has a sharper inner edge. There is a mouthpiece chart at www.trumpet-history.com to align by size.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[shofarguy]

Congratulations on your Benge! As to your mouthpiece, may I suggest you look into the Flip Oakes line, which is manufactured for him by Mark Curry. Mark has a hand-picked set of vintage Bach mouthpieces that he uses as patterns for the rims that he puts on Flip's line. They are slightly larger in diameter and have softer inner radii, compared to his modern versions. They're a nice compromise between the Schilke rims that OldSchool suggested and the modern Bach.

I have used Flip's whole line of Bb mouthpieces on my Benge 5x, in the past. They all worked very well and sounded better than the Bachs, Kanstul CGs or Schilkes I tried. I would suggest the "O" or "C-O" series, depending on what sort of music you play most.

Allow some time for Flip to respond, though, as he is recovering from open-heart surgery and will be in the hospital for a few more days. He'll have hundreds of emails to get through when he does get back to work. It will be worth the wait.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.