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Bulgakov
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Joined: 03 Oct 2017
Posts: 61
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 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:43 pm Post subject: Triple and double tonguing and the Arban book |
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I'm slowly venturing into the double-tonguing realm. Something I never learned back when I played saxophone and something I want to learn now.
I noticed in the Arban book that the triple tonguing exercises come before the double exercises and are described first in the introduction on page 153.
Is this just Arban or, counter-intuitively, is triple tonguing actually the easier and/or better place to start? |
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zaferis
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2329
Location: Beavercreek, OH
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Find a teacher that can help - this will save you time and effort, then avoid the possibility of having to clean up a bad habit, which is much harder to accomplish.
Slowly and rhytmically accurate (various patterms) keeping both "syllables" forward in your mouth ("tee" "kee"). Beyond coordinating the placement and clarity of the "k" you must keep the air moving - most don't. As you're practicing patterns slowly be sure that there is a constant flow of air. Start and end short patterns with sustained notes to reinforce this, alternate to flutter tonging and sluring.
I do find triple easier to start with, I think it's easier to maintain the air flow and the "k" is less frequent. It's not universal, but most benefit by getting a grip on triple tonging first, then the move to double tonging is pretty smooth and quick.
This, I beleive, is true in a couple other study books (triple first)
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:24 am Post subject: |
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To the actual question... is triple easier than double?
It depends on the individual player - some kind it easier to alternate the Tu/Ku (or Du/Gu), some find triple easier to begin with.
Personally, when I very first learned to multiple-tongue, I was advised to start with the slur and double tongue section in the Arban - that worked well for me (and has for several other players I know).
Ultimately though, the advice Zaferis gives is critical - a good teacher can cut through an awful lot of wasted time and get you going in the right direction in a way that you yourself may struggle to (not just in dictating practice material, but in spotting and rectifying flaws in technique that might take you time to undo on your own) |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | Find a teacher that can help - this will save you time and effort, then avoid the possibility of having to clean up a bad habit, which is much harder to accomplish.
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This. One not so great side affect of the internet and all the available information is there sometimes is a tendency to believe that Google or Youtube can replace good old one on one instruction. It doesn’t.
(That’s NOT meant to discourage the OP, by the way, just an observation that I think has merit).
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | Find a teacher that can help - this will save you time and effort, then avoid the possibility of having to clean up a bad habit, which is much harder to accomplish.
...... |
This. One not so great side affect of the internet and all the available information is there sometimes is a tendency to believe that Google or Youtube can replace good old one on one instruction. It doesn’t.
(That’s NOT meant to discourage the OP, by the way, just an observation that I think has merit).
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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bhornFree
Regular Member
Joined: 13 May 2019
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | Find a teacher that can help - this will save you time and effort, then avoid the possibility of having to clean up a bad habit, which is much harder to accomplish.
...... |
This. One not so great side affect of the internet and all the available information is there sometimes is a tendency to believe that Google or Youtube can replace good old one on one instruction. It doesn’t.
(That’s NOT meant to discourage the OP, by the way, just an observation that I think has merit).
Brad |
Sometimes Google and YouTube are all there is. It's not as easy as you'd think to find a good teacher. Most of the "best" teachers within a 1 hour drive of me won't even return an email. And the ones that have -- well not all teachers are created equal. Just because someone puts out a shingle, doesn't mean their knowledge base or instructional capability is worth a plugged nickle. That's assuming you have the budget and transportation to begin with...
Sorry, well off topic. Back on topic:
I, as well as most folks I know, started with double tonguing. Thus it was practiced more. Thus, it is easier  This is an interesting question as possibly just the naming convention implies hierarchy that double should come before triple. Now that I think about it I can see the benefit of going the reverse. Unfortunately I have no one to experiment on... |
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CJceltics33
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:01 am Post subject: |
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You can start with either. Whichever you learn next will be easier.
The Arban is a GREAT way to learn multiple tonguing. Make sure to TAKE IT SLOW at first, and very gradually speed up. Record yourself, make the syllables sound the same. Good luck! |
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:51 am Post subject: |
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A copy of Arban, no matter how much will power one has, is no substitution for good teaching and having a solid foundation of fundamentals before attempting to get multiple tonguing going.
If you are set up right, it will take, literally, a few minutes to understand and put the basics into place. Then some time to assimilate and internalise the skill and you are good to go. Or you can just try and try, possibly with faulty production or the wrong idea and get nowhere fast.
A teacher is always close by if you have internet access and the desire to succeed!
cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Bulgakov
Regular Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2017
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bhornFree wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | Find a teacher that can help - this will save you time and effort, then avoid the possibility of having to clean up a bad habit, which is much harder to accomplish.
...... |
This. One not so great side affect of the internet and all the available information is there sometimes is a tendency to believe that Google or Youtube can replace good old one on one instruction. It doesn’t.
(That’s NOT meant to discourage the OP, by the way, just an observation that I think has merit).
Brad |
Sometimes Google and YouTube are all there is. It's not as easy as you'd think to find a good teacher. Most of the "best" teachers within a 1 hour drive of me won't even return an email. And the ones that have -- well not all teachers are created equal. Just because someone puts out a shingle, doesn't mean their knowledge base or instructional capability is worth a plugged nickle. That's assuming you have the budget and transportation to begin with...
Sorry, well off topic. Back on topic:
I, as well as most folks I know, started with double tonguing. Thus it was practiced more. Thus, it is easier :) This is an interesting question as possibly just the naming convention implies hierarchy that double should come before triple. Now that I think about it I can see the benefit of going the reverse. Unfortunately I have no one to experiment on... |
Thank you for actually answering the question. I'm 49 and not dumb. Just happen to be in a position at the moment where I am not taking lessons (expense and scheduling being issues)--and when I was, the teacher I had did not have a good explanation. Everyone who plays well that I have asked here told me they learned by bashing through Arban. I hope to start again, but that does not mean I should stop playing or stop asking questions. |
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