Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:27 am Post subject: Windmills of my mind?
Came to reflect the other day about the way I produce tones and rediscovered a probably very common habit: I hear the tone inside my head prior to playing it. Seems this is a prerequisite.
Probably been doing that my whole playing life but since I re invented my embouchure – and joined the Trumpet Herald I have come to reconsider and rediscover many many ingredients in my playing. For good or bad….
I find that I have to hear the tone in the right pitch in order to play it in order so to speak.
Thinking of another tone invariably makes me mix things up. If I don´t think/imagine say a G on top of staff but am intended to play a G, and I think of say, an F instead the result is, well, disgusting.
In my view this should be a learned habit. Or??? I do not have perfect pitch, for which I am thankful, but close enough- is this an ingredient? Or?
How about you guys – is this a basic ingredient in your playing and goes without out saying/thinking/imagining) or what? _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:39 am Post subject:
Relative pitch is what most of us learn and over time we can get pretty close on absolute pitch without having "perfect pitch".
Having the sound in mind (not just pitch, but the whole sound) is critical in playing, at least for me, and a tenant of the Chicago school of playing. "Hear it, play it" is worth striving for. The notes on a page are more likely to sound good coming out the bell if you are thinking about the sound of a nice full G on top of the staff than if you are thinking of a black note named G sitting at the top of the staff. And sight reading is waaay easier IME if you can "hear" the notes on the page in front of you.
Starting out, you can establish relative pitch by popping the mouthpiece lightly with your palm whilst it is in the horn. Open should sound a low C, 1-3 a low G, etc. From there you can estimate octaves and neighboring pitches as needed.
Some windmills are worth tilting at.
FWIWFM - Don _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:48 am Post subject:
I believe the goal is to develop an automatic 'reflex action' (embouchure / air / pitch) that is needed to produce the note. Not to consciously depend on mentally hearing or imagining the note beforehand.
Of course the learning process will require practicing that does include 'beforehand' preparing to play the note.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
When I'm playing best, the sound in my imagination (pitch, timbre, color, articulation) is almost as intense and vivid as the sound in the room. It happens before and during notes and allows me to adjust the room sound to match my idealized sound in my imagination. It takes a ton of focus but I find it's worth it. It's certainly a practiced skill.
I've done the same thing with brass players as in the demonstration below and the results are always quite dramatic in terms of quality of sound and accuracy.
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:57 pm Post subject:
I think Don’s comments about relative pitch are very accurate.
Since few of us are born with “perfect pitch”, and we all have different levels of natural abilities, understanding intervals, and what they sound like (ie, a perfect fourth is a perfect fourth, generally) is really valuable especially for a brass player. It’s common sense, if I’m playing, say, third space C, the next note is top line F, knowing what a fourth sounds like makes it much more likely that I won’t frack the note.
I guess this is all pretty basic.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:00 am Post subject:
Muscle memory and hearing the correct note (pitch) are both needed.You have to be able to hear and feel where the note is.I know sometimes when I try a
different mouthpiece, a note isn't where I thought it be,because the feel was different.
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:07 am Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
Muscle memory and hearing the correct note (pitch) are both needed.You have to be able to hear and feel where the note is.I know sometimes when I try a
different mouthpiece, a note isn't where I thought it be,because the feel was different.
Hope this helps,
Al
How do you feel sound? _________________ Bill Bergren
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 am Post subject:
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:36 pm Post subject:
Al Innella wrote:
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels. _________________ Bill Bergren
Last edited by Billy B on Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels.
May I step in?! Following our discussion - hearing/feeling/imagining the tone (and how we play it, duration, attack, warmth etc etc) in question eventually ending up as a practiced habit - it would be fair to assume that we have a multitude of feedback loops at work. They should encompass different senses, certainly muscles, tongue position, lip tension, you name them. While becoming a practiced habit I guess all this sooner or later will become more or less sub-conscious - only surfacing in times of stress, fatigue creeping up etc .
Also - changing different parameters in the equation should have effects;
Playing a new horn, as would a new mouthpiece - require new adaptions.
And a "running in" period during which we learn, more or less consciously what minute new feedback loops are at work. Playing say a high C on your new horn may require some adjustments in comparison to your old one. The tonal quality/effort etc may differ and this has to be learned! And so on.
In my opinion _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:52 am Post subject:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Al Innella wrote:
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels.
May I step in?! Following our discussion - hearing/feeling/imagining the tone (and how we play it, duration, attack, warmth etc etc) in question eventually ending up as a practiced habit - it would be fair to assume that we have a multitude of feedback loops at work. They should encompass different senses, certainly muscles, tongue position, lip tension, you name them. While becoming a practiced habit I guess all this sooner or later will become more or less sub-conscious - only surfacing in times of stress, fatigue creeping up etc .
Also - changing different parameters in the equation should have effects;
Playing a new horn, as would a new mouthpiece - require new adaptions.
And a "running in" period during which we learn, more or less consciously what minute new feedback loops are at work. Playing say a high C on your new horn may require some adjustments in comparison to your old one. The tonal quality/effort etc may differ and this has to be learned! And so on.
In my opinion
You can only focus on one thing at a time. It must be the sound. Everything else happens on a subconscious level. _________________ Bill Bergren
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:27 am Post subject:
Billy B wrote:
Al Innella wrote:
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels.
That’s valid, I do pay attention to how it feels.
I don’t think there are any absolutes here.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:17 am Post subject:
Brad361 wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Al Innella wrote:
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels.
That’s valid, I do pay attention to how it feels.
I don’t think there are any absolutes here.
Brad
Whatever works for you _________________ Bill Bergren
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels.
That’s valid, I do pay attention to how it feels.
I don’t think there are any absolutes here.
Brad
Whatever works for you
Maybe the following example shows some ingredients at work: Beginning seventies in a swingband, we were about to play an arrangement on Don´t get ´round much anymore. Trombone section began with some interval down ("do daaa"), I think a fifth, to G - then the trumpets were supposed to step in, me on top B C C# D ("dododoodot"). But this time the bone guys raised to an A! What happened? I used the usual valve combination beginning on 2 and so on. But to my utter amazement (and big disappointment in the bone section) what came out was C# D D# E!
I felt very weird feeling my fingers pressing down - expecting to hear the corresponding notes but my"system" made me stay in tune - well the rest of the band soon jumping in wasn´t that deligthed
So my ears over-rode my eyes, and directed my chops ! Quite involountarily - no conscious thought involved.
At the time I had been playing about 14 years, almost 50 years before my first formal lessons. Clearly my sense of pitch made my day at this particular occasion. Also three powerful trombones laying down such an explicit "playground" helped. And of course, in this register it´s fairly easy to play "all sorts" of notes on whatever valve combination. But I´ll never forget the odd feeling. _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:24 am Post subject:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Al Innella wrote:
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels.
That’s valid, I do pay attention to how it feels.
I don’t think there are any absolutes here.
Brad
Whatever works for you
It would be beneficial to you to read the Bill Adam thread.
Maybe the following example shows some ingredients at work: Beginning seventies in a swingband, we were about to play an arrangement on Don´t get ´round much anymore. Trombone section began with some interval down ("do daaa"), I think a fifth, to G - then the trumpets were supposed to step in, me on top B C C# D ("dododoodot"). But this time the bone guys raised to an A! What happened? I used the usual valve combination beginning on 2 and so on. But to my utter amazement (and big disappointment in the bone section) what came out was C# D D# E!
I felt very weird feeling my fingers pressing down - expecting to hear the corresponding notes but my"system" made me stay in tune - well the rest of the band soon jumping in wasn´t that deligthed
So my ears over-rode my eyes, and directed my chops ! Quite involountarily - no conscious thought involved.
At the time I had been playing about 14 years, almost 50 years before my first formal lessons. Clearly my sense of pitch made my day at this particular occasion. Also three powerful trombones laying down such an explicit "playground" helped. And of course, in this register it´s fairly easy to play "all sorts" of notes on whatever valve combination. But I´ll never forget the odd feeling.
You don't feel sound, but you do feel how much effort it takes to play a C in the staff as opposed to a C or G above the staff. I did say it takes hearing the note and feeling the note (muscle memory). So Billy, tell me how can you play a note without knowing how it feels on your embouchure? I say it takes both,not only one.
I never pay attention to how it feels.
That’s valid, I do pay attention to how it feels.
I don’t think there are any absolutes here.
Brad
Whatever works for you
It would be beneficial to you to read the Bill Adam thread.
Maybe the following example shows some ingredients at work: Beginning seventies in a swingband, we were about to play an arrangement on Don´t get ´round much anymore. Trombone section began with some interval down ("do daaa"), I think a fifth, to G - then the trumpets were supposed to step in, me on top B C C# D ("dododoodot"). But this time the bone guys raised to an A! What happened? I used the usual valve combination beginning on 2 and so on. But to my utter amazement (and big disappointment in the bone section) what came out was C# D D# E!
I felt very weird feeling my fingers pressing down - expecting to hear the corresponding notes but my"system" made me stay in tune - well the rest of the band soon jumping in wasn´t that deligthed
So my ears over-rode my eyes, and directed my chops ! Quite involountarily - no conscious thought involved.
At the time I had been playing about 14 years, almost 50 years before my first formal lessons. Clearly my sense of pitch made my day at this particular occasion. Also three powerful trombones laying down such an explicit "playground" helped. And of course, in this register it´s fairly easy to play "all sorts" of notes on whatever valve combination. But I´ll never forget the odd feeling.
Anything particular you have in mind? _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
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