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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA
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 Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Louise,
Sorry for your glitch. I look forward to seeing your response.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | Louise,
Hi cgaiii
Interesting comments about the 24 and 25 mm insertion on the Zeno.
Thank you very much.
I have been experimenting with gap a little on my trumpets. Interestingly, I found that the gap on my Schilke X3L with a Bach mounthpiece (1.5 C, 1.5C Sympnonic) is identical to the gap on my Yamaha 6335. (I am happy with the Schicke, not so much with the Yamaha right now.)
Thank you very much for sharing.
I do not have a Bach to experiment with, so I do not have that comparison. When I get home this evening, I am going to try the 6335 with a Yamaha mouthpiece and see what happens.
I think that this would be worth your while. Please let me know your findings.
I got the 6335 used without playing banking on Yamaha consistency because I had played one and liked the characteristics of it, but this one has never quite been quite as open as the one I liked. (Been messing with gap given that the one I played was set up for a GR mouthpiece. No luck so far.)
I really think that reducing the gap, will open the 6335 up to more what you were expecting.
By the way, it is not too hard to measure gap by marking the distance from the end of the receiver to the venturi on a rod or pencil and then marking the insertion of the mouthpiece (which you have already done).
Thank you very much, but I did already know this. I just haven't bothered to measure it.
I would be curious about the gaps you have on the Bach and the Zeno.
I bought my Bach 37 used from Leigh at Eclipse. He had just replaced the leadpipe and it was in raw brass waiting for re-finishing, when I chose it. After not being able to locate the ledge at the top of the leadpipe, I looked down it with a light, and all you can see is a flat solder rim where the leadpipe meets the mouthpiece receiver, like commonly found on short model cornets. The mouthpiece receiver is standard. There is therefore technically no actual gap to measure, but varying the insertion amount still has the same affect, although in my experience to a lesser amount.
When I have a moment, I'll measure for you, the gap which I am using on the Xeno. I'm a bit rushed off my feet at the moment (and conscious that I should be practising rather than posting on here lol), hence my slow reply, which I'm very sorry about. If I don't post again by the end of next week, please remind me, either on this thread or by PM.
(Also wondering if the Zeno has a different receiver from other Yamaha trumpets)
I believe that the 9 series Chicago and New York models gap differently, but my understanding is that the Xeno has the same mouthpiece receiver as the other Yamaha pro models including your 6335.
(Harrelson Trumpets also makes a nice Gap Measurement tool one can use.)
Thanks very much, I'll have to check this out.
Best wishes
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: |
I really think that reducing the gap, will open the 6335 up to more what you were expecting.
Will work on this a see what I get. I did a little experimentation and then got busy. Will also try a Yamaha mouthpiece and check that gap.
I bought my Bach 37 used from Leigh at Eclipse. He had just replaced the leadpipe and it was in raw brass waiting for re-finishing, when I chose it. After not being able to locate the ledge at the top of the leadpipe, I looked down it with a light, and all you can see is a flat solder rim where the leadpipe meets the mouthpiece receiver, like commonly found on short model cornets. The mouthpiece receiver is standard. There is therefore technically no actual gap to measure, but varying the insertion amount still has the same affect, although in my experience to a lesser amount.
When I have a moment, I'll measure for you, the gap which I am using on the Xeno. I'm a bit rushed off my feet at the moment (and conscious that I should be practising rather than posting on here lol), hence my slow reply, which I'm very sorry about. If I don't post again by the end of next week, please remind me, either on this thread or by PM.
Interesting about the receiver on the Bach. I don't know much about cornets, but the cornet receivers for my piccolo trumpet have the same characteristic, smooth alignment of receiver with no step. I wonder if all cornets are built that way. I wonder why the depth of the mouthpiece has an effect still, since all it does is slightly shorten the lead pipe.
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Please do not worry about being slow to post. Practice and family always come first!
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:44 am Post subject: |
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Louise,
I think we have hijacked this thread a little bit, but I did the experiment with the Yamaha mouthpiece and the 6335. You are certainly right about the insert depth, about a mm more. I played around with more mouthpieces too. I only have one Yamaha mouthpiece (a stock 11B4 one that came with a YTR4335S that I played for a long time; never used the mouthpiece). I have never played that small a mouthpiece and do not own an equivalent Bach to compare, so I was probably comparing apples to oranges. I also tried a Schilke 12, which inserts about the same as the Yamaha. The Schilke rim is not to my liking, so it is probably a bad comparison too, but it is a little bigger. The smallest Bach I have is a 3C (used as a paperweight), but I just used 1.5 Cs with various different throats/backbores in my comparison.
In every case, the Bach mouthpieces played better for me above the staff, particularly from A up. In the staff, the horn may have been a little more open with the narrower gap, but it was pretty inconclusive, definitely not dramatically different. I probably have to arrange a set of equivalent mouthpieces to really be able to conclude anything. Anyway, it was an interesting experiment. I'll keep working on ideas for the horn.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: |
Please do not worry about being slow to post. Practice and family always come first! |
Hi cgaiii
Thanks very much for being so understanding. I had a good practise session yesterday, but didn't get round to measuring the gap on my Xeno, afterwards. I'll do it as soon as I'm able.
Take care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | Louise,
I think we have hijacked this thread a little bit, but I did the experiment with the Yamaha mouthpiece and the 6335. You are certainly right about the insert depth, about a mm more. I played around with more mouthpieces too. I only have one Yamaha mouthpiece (a stock 11B4 one that came with a YTR4335S that I played for a long time; never used the mouthpiece). I have never played that small a mouthpiece and do not own an equivalent Bach to compare, so I was probably comparing apples to oranges. I also tried a Schilke 12, which inserts about the same as the Yamaha. The Schilke rim is not to my liking, so it is probably a bad comparison too, but it is a little bigger. The smallest Bach I have is a 3C (used as a paperweight), but I just used 1.5 Cs with various different throats/backbores in my comparison.
In every case, the Bach mouthpieces played better for me above the staff, particularly from A up. In the staff, the horn may have been a little more open with the narrower gap, but it was pretty inconclusive, definitely not dramatically different. I probably have to arrange a set of equivalent mouthpieces to really be able to conclude anything. Anyway, it was an interesting experiment. I'll keep working on ideas for the horn. |
Hi again cgaiii
Yes, maybe we have hijacked this thread a little. Hopefully the OP won't mind. OP, please let me know if you do. It is a shame that you don't have a Yamaha 16C4 to which to compare your Bach 1 1/2C. All my mouthpieces are James R New (or made by Jim New when he was at Kanstul), and are a copy of the cup end of my favourite Bach 3C, a 2005 one, which according to a UK tech who turned a Denis Wick 4B cornet mouthpiece into an underpart to accept a screw rim which Jim New made me, is 1 1/2 C sized and actually a fraction bigger than some modern Bach 1 1/2 Cs that he has measured, so I too prefer 1 1/2 C sized mouthpieces.
It is interesting that you found your Bach 1 1/2 C better above the stave, particularly from A up. I've always found the opposite, i.e. that the upper register is less open and more difficult for me with this 1mm larger gap. A colleague of mine recently had exactly same experience as me.
Thanks very much for sharing. Please let me know how this all pans out.
Take care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | It is a shame that you don't have a Yamaha 16C4 to which to compare your Bach 1 1/2C.
<snip>
It is interesting that you found your Bach 1 1/2 C better above the stave, particularly from A up. I've always found the opposite, i.e. that the upper register is less open and more difficult for me with this 1mm larger gap. A colleague of mine recently had exactly same experience as me.
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I will have to try and get my hands on a 16C4. Right now, my favorite mouthpiece for Bb trumpet is a Bach Symphonic series 1.5C, which has a 26 throat and a No. 24 back bore. This was also nicest for me up high with the 6335S, though I previously though my 1.5C with a 26 throat and the normal no. 10 back bore was best on that horn. Not sure why but it has been the case all along that I play better with more open equipment.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | It is a shame that you don't have a Yamaha 16C4 to which to compare your Bach 1 1/2C.
<snip>
It is interesting that you found your Bach 1 1/2 C better above the stave, particularly from A up. I've always found the opposite, i.e. that the upper register is less open and more difficult for me with this 1mm larger gap. A colleague of mine recently had exactly same experience as me.
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I will have to try and get my hands on a 16C4. Right now, my favorite mouthpiece for Bb trumpet is a Bach Symphonic series 1.5C, which has a 26 throat and a No. 24 back bore. This was also nicest for me up high with the 6335S, though I previously though my 1.5C with a 26 throat and the normal no. 10 back bore was best on that horn. Not sure why but it has been the case all along that I play better with more open equipment. |
Hi cgaiii
My James R New mouthpieces all have a 27 throat and 10 backbore. Your 26 throat and 24 backbore are obviously more open, but the reduction in resistance is again obviously in a different place. I definitely think that a Yamaha 16C4 would be worth trying. Please let me know if you do try one.
Best wishes
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: |
My James R New mouthpieces all have a 27 throat and 10 backbore. Your 26 throat and 24 backbore are obviously more open, but the reduction in resistance is again obviously in a different place. I definitely think that a Yamaha 16C4 would be worth trying. Please let me know if you do try one.
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Perhaps we should start a new thread on this Lou, but I looked up James R. New mouthpieces. Very interesting. How did you happen onto them, and what do you find better? Do you use their components or one-piece mouthpieces?
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12660
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: |
My James R New mouthpieces all have a 27 throat and 10 backbore. Your 26 throat and 24 backbore are obviously more open, but the reduction in resistance is again obviously in a different place. I definitely think that a Yamaha 16C4 would be worth trying. Please let me know if you do try one.
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Perhaps we should start a new thread on this Lou, but I looked up James R. New mouthpieces. Very interesting. How did you happen onto them, and what do you find better? Do you use their components or one-piece mouthpieces? |
Check out this thread from 2016 introducing Jim’s mouthpiece business. |
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1543
Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks LittleRusty. Very interesting reading.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5464
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cgaiii wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: |
My James R New mouthpieces all have a 27 throat and 10 backbore. Your 26 throat and 24 backbore are obviously more open, but the reduction in resistance is again obviously in a different place. I definitely think that a Yamaha 16C4 would be worth trying. Please let me know if you do try one.
|
Perhaps we should start a new thread on this Lou, but I looked up James R. New mouthpieces. Very interesting. How did you happen onto them, and what do you find better? Do you use their components or one-piece mouthpieces? |
Hi cgaiii
Will start a new thread on this, on the mouthpiece forum.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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