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Besson stencil flugelhorn??? (Resolved)



 
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TimBrown
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Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 738
Location: Galesburg Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject: Besson stencil flugelhorn??? (Resolved) Reply with quote

Hello everyone.

Found and grabbed an old French made flugel on Ebay. Has an obscure name stamped on it..."J. Gras". The seller (a music store in Haslett, Michigan) is guessing it was made somewhere in the 30's to 50's.

I've done some searching but am not finding much out but I'm wondering if it's possible that Besson made stencils. I do see some similarities in the bracing, etc. I'm also thinking that perhaps Elden Benge may have been aware of these horns...see the music staff on the hallmark, which Benge used on the Chicago instruments...! Of course, the J. Gras doesn't have notes, but the staff is there. So again, I'm wondering if Besson may have stenciled this?

Just guessing.

Thanks!

[/img]https://imgur.com/gallery/WkDQJrJ
_________________
Kanstul Meha .470
L.A. Benge 3x+ 9879
1912 Holton New Proportion cornet
Kanstul CCF 925 flugel
King 1122 MFH
Holton Dual Bell

10 out of 10 people die. Do you consider yourself to be a good person?


Last edited by TimBrown on Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Evinerate
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Joined: 15 Nov 2016
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, Besson never built any stencil instruments, there were instruments that were assembled in NYC by Joseph Rapuano in the 30s that had different parts from Besson trumpet designations and a special bell stamping that did have the name "Meha" but did not have "Besson" or "F.B." but that was the only exception I believe.

Many companies copied the French Besson instruments, especially the design and had similar stampings as the Besson instruments. A lot of early Couenson flugelhorns look a lot like Besson Flugelhorns from the same period.
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TimBrown
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Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 738
Location: Galesburg Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evinerate wrote:
...Many companies copied the French Besson instruments, especially the design and had similar stampings as the Besson instruments. A lot of early Couenson flugelhorns look a lot like Besson Flugelhorns from the same period.


Yes, I've noticed some similarities with both of them. The long brace from valve 3 to the bottom tube and the slightly ovoid brace between the first and third slides. Had me wondering.

From the similarities I see (with pre-war bessons and Couesnon horns), I'm thinking this J. Graf is also most likely pre-war.

From what the music shop (seller) said, it should be a really good player. We'll find out.
_________________
Kanstul Meha .470
L.A. Benge 3x+ 9879
1912 Holton New Proportion cornet
Kanstul CCF 925 flugel
King 1122 MFH
Holton Dual Bell

10 out of 10 people die. Do you consider yourself to be a good person?
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TimBrown
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Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 738
Location: Galesburg Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did some looking around and translating on some of what's on the bell. It was made at 4 rue de larochefoucauld, Paris. The phrase "fournisserur de l'armee" is "To supply the army". So, this along with how it compares to Bessons and other pre-war flugels, this was made about the time of WWII.

Just a guess. Fascinating.

The horn is expected by Fedex tomorrow. I'll get back here with a review in the rare case someone has seen these and are interested. From a site selling another one, it's a bit over 2 pounds. French taper and a Cousenon flugel mp.
_________________
Kanstul Meha .470
L.A. Benge 3x+ 9879
1912 Holton New Proportion cornet
Kanstul CCF 925 flugel
King 1122 MFH
Holton Dual Bell

10 out of 10 people die. Do you consider yourself to be a good person?
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TimBrown
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 738
Location: Galesburg Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did some more research, ran across "Musicantice.eu". Contacted them and a guy named Rodolphe responded:

" Hello
Gras was both listed makers and dealers but they were mostly dealers and resold instruments made by Thibouville and Jerome Thibouville Lamy factories.
I attache an excerpt from the book :The New Langwill Index : A Dictionary of Musical Wind-Instrument Makers and Inventors by William Waterhouse, Ed. Tony Bingham, London 1993.
Regards
Rodolphe"

Anyway, if anyone was wondering at.all. about the Gras horns, there's some info.

I said I'd review the horn after I got it. I played it and it was decent...but I did return it as it had valve casing thread issues.

So, there you are.
_________________
Kanstul Meha .470
L.A. Benge 3x+ 9879
1912 Holton New Proportion cornet
Kanstul CCF 925 flugel
King 1122 MFH
Holton Dual Bell

10 out of 10 people die. Do you consider yourself to be a good person?
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