• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Embouchure



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
emmaaaa
New Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2018
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:48 am    Post subject: Embouchure Reply with quote

Hi so I'm a senior trumpet player and I recently had a lesson, the first thing he noticed when I started playing is my embouchure. He said it's something I should definitely try to fix but now after hearing that, It's all I can think about when I play and it has really set me back in my playing. Is there truly a set embouchure I should be working for, if so how do I go about getting that form. Or should I just focus on what makes me sound good?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 524
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There isn't a precise embouchure that is best for everyone - because it all depends on YOUR physical structure. But there are several guidelines about what works for 'most' people.

First tho, did your teacher mention what needs to change, or what is wrong with the embouchure setting you have been using?

The basic purpose of the embouchure setting is to facilitate and allow the upper lip to vibrate at the frequency needed to produce the desired note (including ones higher than you can currently play). And for the embouchure to comfortable enough to allow playing for a reasonable amount of time - without result in any actual pain or injury.

If the teacher thinks your current embouchure does not provide these functions, the teacher should at least tell you what problems are expected.
And the 'problems' might be things that you will need to learn in the future in order to become a better player. Such as better articulation, higher range, bigger interval jumps, etc.
The point is that you don't want to be hampered by an embouchure that prevents further improvement.

As an example, some people use excessive mouthpiece pressure to play notes at the top of the staff - and that can work for a few notes. But trying to go higher fails because so much pressure is used that the lip is prevented from vibrating.

You'll need to explain more about what your teacher has told you, and also about your current embouchure and playing ability.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2238
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you had 'a' lesson, then the very first thing to do is book a whole lot more, with the same person if you feel you can trust them to guide through what may be a necessary transformative process.

There is zero way anyone can help you from your brief description. By way of example, I am filling on for a colleague for a few weeks and the kids I am covering all have very different issues. The way forward is totally different for each one, yet they all play with a thin pinched sound, hold the instrument in a strangle hold and mostly have no articulation to speak of.

You think with all these common issues, they could do with a common solution, but this is not the case! e are working on confidence, commitment, breathing, posture, embouchure setting, a rubbish instrument, and lack of practicing, across these kids. None all are common, apart from breathing...

Hope that gives a little perspective!

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
pepperdean
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 608
Location: Johnson City, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your teacher said your chops are deficient. This is like coming home from a doctor's appointment and reporting that he said you were sick. That's just not an acceptable outcome. You need a remedy, not a declaration that you have to solve on your own.

Your teacher may not know how to direct your improvement, Okay. Maybe he can recommend someone who can. Otherwise, this website can lead you to teachers in your area (just ask) or teachers who will help you via online lessons. Personally, I'd look for teachers who will give you exercises that will lead you to improvement (like the doctor who prescribes medicine) rather than a tear-down and reconstruct.

Looking for answers on the internet will be an unlikely source of success. However, we'll be anxious to hear of your journey. Best wishes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 1884
Location: Amador County, CA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does he play? What are his qualifications? What did he say was wrong?
_________________
Richard

For Sale: Cornets: Conn 77A, 80A, King Long Cornet Silvertone, Roth-Reynolds Professional, King Cleveland Superior.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 1823

PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind that even if your foundational mechanics are good it still can take a long time to progress on trumpet. It's a very personal instrument and many approaches can be successful. One of the main difficulties is finding the best approach for your personal physiology. If your approach doesn't match up well with your physiology a lot of things can go wrong. Also, trumpet is a very physical instrument and it can take a long time to master the physical requirements.

In my own experience when something is wrong/not working it is very difficult to diagnose the problem and prescribe a cure with precision. This makes advice from your teacher potentially hit and miss. Complicating things is the fact that the correct "cure" might not create immediate improvement, it may take a long time to coordinate everything to create the projected improvement. My point is that there are lots of things happening when you play trumpet which have to work together in order for you to be successful. There is no single "magic" cure.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 1606

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Reply with quote

emmaaaa wrote:
Hi so I'm a senior trumpet player and I recently had a lesson, the first thing he noticed when I started playing is my embouchure. He said it's something I should definitely try to fix but now after hearing that, It's all I can think about when I play and it has really set me back in my playing. Is there truly a set embouchure I should be working for, if so how do I go about getting that form. Or should I just focus on what makes me sound good?

Are you able to post video of yourself playing? There might be a fundamental issue with your embouchure or your teacher may have a prejudice of what an embouchure is "supposed" to look like. No way for anyone to gain any insight into this from just a text description. Posting video would be helpful.

One of the issues is that the difference between things working well and not working well can be very subtle. There's a lot going on when you play. The balance of muscular tension has to be just so, and it has to change as range and volume changes. And the mouthpiece has to be anchored to your lips the "right" way. But it also won't work if the air isn't right, if the teeth opening and angle isn't right, if there's too much or not enough mouthpiece pressure. You're constantly walking a tightrope.

Your sound is the primary guide - if your sound isn't where you want it to be, things needs to be adjusted and/or strengthened.
_________________
GoFundMe for CHASE member Ted Piercefield

https://www.gofundme.com/f/teeth-for-ted-piercefield
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tenring
Regular Member


Joined: 18 Aug 2019
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Embouchure Reply with quote

emmaaaa wrote:
Hi so I'm a senior trumpet player and I recently had a lesson, the first thing he noticed when I started playing is my embouchure. He said it's something I should definitely try to fix but now after hearing that, It's all I can think about when I play and it has really set me back in my playing. Is there truly a set embouchure I should be working for, if so how do I go about getting that form. Or should I just focus on what makes me sound good?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=253aGgk7NSE
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2238
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One can focus on not playing with under pitch vibrato or blatant intonation issues... but hey, it's on youtube, right?
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tenring
Regular Member


Joined: 18 Aug 2019
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
One can focus on not playing with under pitch vibrato or blatant intonation issues... but hey, it's on youtube, right?

I thought it was a fine example of an embouchure not being in the middle. To get there she has overcome a lot. I hope it’s encouraging to the original post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8584
Location: Monument, CO

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was pretty good for a 17 year old on stage with a professional group like that.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 7554
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's best not let comments like that get in your head. No sufficiently competent teacher will just tell you fix your embouchure and expect you to figure it out. I'd expect you to be told that they'd like to make an adjustment, possibly why they think that, and then be given a routine and a way of executing it that will with time result in the desired change.

In all generality you can't fix an embochure problem other than by instilling a correction that eventually replaces the lesser habit with a better one. Do the work and trust that it will get you where you want to go. If you don't have confidence in your teacher and their method, find another that you do.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 724
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:


The basic purpose of the embouchure setting is to facilitate and allow the upper lip to vibrate at the frequency needed to produce the desired note (including ones higher than you can currently play). And for the embouchure to comfortable enough to allow playing for a reasonable amount of time - without result in any actual pain or injury.


Just be aware that while this may hold true for the majority of players, it does NOT hold true for players with an upstream embouchure, where the primary vibrating lip is the lower lip, not the upper lip.
_________________
-Tom Hall-
Bach 37 B flat
Bach 239 C w/Akright Leadpipe
Schilke E3L E flat
Stomvi Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
JayKosta wrote:


The basic purpose of the embouchure setting is to facilitate and allow the upper lip to vibrate at the frequency needed to produce the desired note (including ones higher than you can currently play). And for the embouchure to comfortable enough to allow playing for a reasonable amount of time - without result in any actual pain or injury.


Just be aware that while this may hold true for the majority of players, it does NOT hold true for players with an upstream embouchure, where the primary vibrating lip is the lower lip, not the upper lip.


True for me that my lower lip does the heavy lifting on higher notes.up and out forever🧐
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 1823

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
I thought it was pretty good for a 17 year old on stage with a professional group like that.


It's my understanding that her embouchure is off center due to her dental structure. Which just goes to show that there are many approaches that can work and that if we want to play our best we have to figure out how to make our embouchure coordinate with our physiology.

I agree that she does a fine job in the youtube video. There is another youtube video of her performing the 3rd movement of the Haydn. She does a fine job on that, too. Good for her!
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgaiii
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 265
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am curious.

How many actually play with an exactly centered embouchure?
Many that I see are actually a tiny bit off center. Mine has always been just a little to the left and I see slight offsets with a lot of trumpet players. Seems like there is a natural place for forming the aperture for everyone. No one ever told me to correct it. I have seen some really extreme ones and then ones like the video that was posted. I am sure I have seen exactly centered ones, but the offset ones come to mind. You can't always judge by the apparent position of the mouthpiece, you have to look for the position of the ring when the mouthpiece is removed to be sure.
_________________
Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TrpPro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1358
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyplace on your lips that you can make a sound, you can develop that mouthpiece placement into an embouchure. The trick is learning how to blow the horn. Practice right and have patience.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tenring
Regular Member


Joined: 18 Aug 2019
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread got me working on my own Embouchure. I’ve been working on this ecxercise recommended by Warren Vache (YouTube video). I have to say I have a long way to go to get this smooth. I could do it but I moved my chin. Just using shape of lips and increasing air is a challenge. Only been 25 years since I played. Ugh!!! I’ll try to get the link attached.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HatvvpozdRo&list=PL8EGr8_QSLvw52cwtQ9PoQAn0ukW5dkv9&index=27&t=10s
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 6299
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to think there might be more to this story than what the OP stated, and as others have said, ONE lesson doesn’t mean much. I’m not a fan of having players with 6-7 years (which certainly is not a lot) of experience making major embouchure changes unless there are REAL problems. I attended college with a guy who was quite accomplished, his college lesson teacher convinced him he needed an embouchure change. After about a year of real struggling, he finally made it......right back to about where he was before the change.

To the OP, if you’re still here: ask your teacher exactly what he or she thinks you need to change, and why. And you can and should ask this in a way that conveys your genuine desire to find out exactly what the teacher thinks and means, not in a “well, why should I do this??” way. There is NO way for anyone here to be able to tell you if a change is necessary, but I do hope you report back on what your teacher says.

Finally......don’t get discouraged!!

Brad
_________________
"I always try but, not always, because the horn is mercy-less, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
scarface
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 1790

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
I thought it was pretty good for a 17 year old on stage with a professional group like that.


It's my understanding that her embouchure is off center due to her dental structure. Which just goes to show that there are many approaches that can work and that if we want to play our best we have to figure out how to make our embouchure coordinate with our physiology.

I agree that she does a fine job in the youtube video. There is another youtube video of her performing the 3rd movement of the Haydn. She does a fine job on that, too. Good for her!


Cool to see that. I play with a similar angle but off to left, for dental structure reasons. I don’t play high enough yet for the angle to make much difference, but it made sense to find a flat surface sooner than later to avoid pinning the lip on a contact point (overlapping incisor). I did it after reading an interview with Dennis Najoom, and it instantly gave me a half step at the time.

Certainly didn’t hear any embouchure issues in her playing.

@op, maybe get another opinion as well. You may have other concerns than mp placement.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group