• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

I need some help.


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
area51recording
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 416

PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to be one of those "I play in a big band and I need to have a solid DHC by next Friday" posts.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eliot
Regular Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 36
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G'day ... a "downunder" Aussie here ...

I'm intrigued. I've been reading this thread and wondering about the DHC which I've interpreted as Double High C. Correct?
Now, hearing about DHC (if I understand it correctly) is C6 (Bb on piano)? That is, two octaves above the low C open note or, two ledger lines above the treble clef?

Hope someone can confirm or correct me on my understanding. I've puzzled over the terminology and the range of the trumpet for some time. In high school, years ago, I was of the understanding that the standard range was from low F# below the stave to high C two ledger lines above the stave. It seems pretty apparent these days that the range has been extended by some to well above this.

Now back to the thread ...
Recently I reckon I enjoyed an epiphany! I was practising on the horn, some two or more hours a day in two "shifts," enjoying it and realizing a decent range - after very significant "warm up." When it came to playing with the group I found I was having difficulty blowing any note above the stave.

Long story short:Ended up over doing it and "stuffing" the chops. I've since reduced my practise sessions to two or three sessions of around 30 to 45 minutes and ceasing practise at the very first indication of tired chops. At this stage I reckon my warm up times have reduced very significantly and my range has increased. A, B & C above the staff are practised, but not for too long, and are relatively easy to "hit"

Comments re DHC especially, very welcome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CJceltics33
Veteran Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 316
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DHC is three octaves above low C. Its the second C above the staff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1922
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eliot wrote:
G'day ... a "downunder" Aussie here ...

I'm intrigued. I've been reading this thread and wondering about the DHC which I've interpreted as Double High C. Correct?
Now, hearing about DHC (if I understand it correctly) is C6 (Bb on piano)? That is, two octaves above the low C open note or, two ledger lines above the treble clef?

Hope someone can confirm or correct me on my understanding. I've puzzled over the terminology and the range of the trumpet for some time. In high school, years ago, I was of the understanding that the standard range was from low F# below the stave to high C two ledger lines above the stave. It seems pretty apparent these days that the range has been extended by some to well above this.

Now back to the thread ...
Recently I reckon I enjoyed an epiphany! I was practising on the horn, some two or more hours a day in two "shifts," enjoying it and realizing a decent range - after very significant "warm up." When it came to playing with the group I found I was having difficulty blowing any note above the stave.

Long story short:Ended up over doing it and "stuffing" the chops. I've since reduced my practise sessions to two or three sessions of around 30 to 45 minutes and ceasing practise at the very first indication of tired chops. At this stage I reckon my warm up times have reduced very significantly and my range has increased. A, B & C above the staff are practised, but not for too long, and are relatively easy to "hit"

Comments re DHC especially, very welcome.


30-45 minute sessions and stopping when you get tired is a very smart way to practice. Lots of bad things can happen if we push things when we are tired.

What is “standard” trumpet range may be difficult to define, but even Herbert L Clarke practiced daily to G above High C (I call that High G). Many if not most pro players have at least a High G and it’s been that way for many decades.

We can play most trumpet music if we have a strong High D, and if we have a strong High G we can play most lead trumpet music.
_________________
Inspiration
Wild Things
Wedge MPs


Last edited by INTJ on Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 2587

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I f you can find a copy of Leon Merian's Trumpet Isometrics you'll find some good exercises that could help.

Squirt drills: articulate the sylable dyeet on repeated notes (8 8th notes on 3rd space C) rest, continue up in 1/2 steps. Basically a "doink" from the articulated note. Leon said that it was good for building the buccinator (firm corner) muscles.

"Air-On exercise: basically lip trills - using tu-ee (C-E & C#-E 6X in a breath- stop rest continue up a 1/2 (C#-E, D-F) etc etc use a little extra push of the breath on the eee syllable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetchops
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2549

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anybody that's interested.

I tried some of the things posted.

If I play to E above high C and change things, like pressure on the top or bottom lip or, changing the angle of the trumpet, the sound stops. If I try messing with my tongue, a different arch or maybe moving the tongue forward, the sound stops.

I took out Trents MP the other day. Right up to F just like nothing. With that MP I can play the F with a giant sound or really soft. If I go back to the Monette I can only get to the E.

I am starting to think that my Monette MP isn't the correct size for me. The Trent MP is closer to what I need but, I think if I could get a Monette in the correct size I might be happy. If I buy it and it only works for a week or so, I'll be really unhappy.
_________________
Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct.



http://www.trumpetwedding.com/
http://myspace.com/josephspitzertrumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1922
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe,

It takes a while to find the feel for the correct tongue arch. Several years ago my range as about where you are now. I stumbled into a tongue arch setting that immediately gave me a High G (4 ledger lines), but I didn’t understand that was how a high tongue arch felt so my G went away for a while. I stumbled into this setting again about a year later and this time I understood that that WAS a high tongue arch and I immediately had my High G again.

To me, my high tongue arch feels like it is at the back of my throat. Almost like I am “biting down” with my throat. Those are not the normal terms used to describe tongue arch. When ever I would move my tongue arch forward like everyone told told me to I’d shut off. That is why I saw while we all do things the same way, we think about them differently.

Also, PLEASE contact Pops. He can give you a Skype lesson and significantly shorten your learning curve.
_________________
Inspiration
Wild Things
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eliot
Regular Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 36
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A BIG thank you to CJCeltics33, INTJ and EdKennedy for explaining the DHC and the words of advice re practise and how to get to these super high (for me) notes .

Much appreciated ... and left in awe of those with the experience and skills to get these "super" high notes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9580
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
John,

While there are indeed players who don't use enough air, I wonder if that is more of a beginning player issue?


I want to make sure it's clear, I was not talking about air volume or flow, I was, and am talking about air pressure. And this is not a beginner issue. A Double High C requires more air pressure than the average player or even most advanced players can generate.

INTJ wrote:
Wouldn't a player who can play a strong High E and can occasionally get a strong F or G have enough airpower for DHC?


Would a weight lifter who can bench press 200 lbs. and occasionally can bench press 210 or even 220 lbs. have enough power (strength) to benchpress 275 lbs?

Now, granted, I think you were asking about someone who can play a strong E, F or maybe even G being able to play what I assume you mean to be a weak DHC. If that's the comparison you are making, my answer would be, some will be able to, and some won't. I think that in this situation, the coordination (efficiency) of the embouchure and tongue arch become extremely critical. As we get to the range where "our ego is writing checks our body can't cash" (from a strength perspective) the coordination/efficiency side of the equation has to be pretty much perfect in order to get notes to sound. The tolerances become real close between what will and what will not get the lips to vibrate at that high frequency when we've reached the limits of our (air pressure) strength.

INTJ wrote:
Isn't it more likely that their tongue arch and chop setting is holding them back?


No, I think it's most likely that they just haven't built up the strength required to produce the necessary air pressure to play that high in range. But then at that point tongue arch and chop setting do become more involved, often in a detrimental way, because usually what the player does is tighten the lips even more and arch the tongue even more to the point where the opposite of what is desired happens - the lips clamp up and the tongue arch restricts the air too much or stops it all together.


INTJ wrote:
I use the wedge breath, trying to breathe from my butt and knees so that I keep my upper chest as relaxed as possible.


While I don't believe in the wedge breath (except that it does get the player to take a full breath, with the air going exactly where it always goes when you take a full breath using any manner - into the lungs), to what you wrote about keeping the upper chest as relaxed as possible: BINGO!!! That is exactly the feeling I feel when I am playing in the range above High C - a whole lot of work being done by my chest, abdomen and back (actually the internal intercostal) muscles, but the area of my upper chest, neck and throat are totally relaxed.

In summary, playing the extreme upper register requires both strength (air power and a strong embouchure) and coordination (efficient tongue arch channeling the air stream and an efficient embouchure setting). All of what is needed can be developed by practicing a routine that includes lip flexibilities that go up into the upper register, technical studies that go into the upper register, and range studies such as those found in the Part One and Part Two exercises throughout Claude Gordon's book Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet, if the player practices the material correctly. That's where a good, knowledgeable teacher comes into play.

You all ought to have a listen to what Maynard Ferguson says about all this. I've cued this video to start at 2:58. Listen to what he says through about 3:36 on the video, then re-cue it to 2:58 and listen to him about a hundred more times. Then finish the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuK_WWPqNVQ&feature=youtu.be&t=178

Cheers all,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
Student Nurse (I graduate in December!)
Trumpet Player and Teacher
Personal Valet to a Malamute (people with Malamutes will understand)
https://i.postimg.cc/R0G2bFdQ/IMG-6788.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
JVL
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 566
Location: Nissa, France

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello INTJ & John,
sorry but there are some wrong things or not known.
The "wedge breath" taught by Bobby Shew, has nothing to do with "breathing from butt, knees".
And the power of this breathing comes, for the exhalation, from the part of the abds muscles that can be assimilated to the hara point.
Sorry if my English doesn't translate exactly what Bobby teaches or the words he would use. But that's the idea.

best
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JoseLindE4
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 607

PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walter Bone wrote:
Have you tried to break that wall buzzing into the mouthpiece?
If can manage to do that go back into the trumpet and try to do the same thing you just did.
I find it's a good way to do troubleshooting, even if obviously buzzing doesn't translate directly into making notes on the trumpet.


I used a rim on a stick to break through a long-held barrier at G above high C. Almost instantly I had another 6th on my range. Going to a trumpet-like device that wasn't actually a trumpet introduced enough weirdness into the system to free me up to subconsciously experiment. It took some time to apply it back to the trumpet, but it was eye-opening.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1922
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I understand that you meant air pressure. However unless we test someone’s PSI how can we know for sure if the issue is air pressure and not something else? In my own case it wasn’t PSI, it was tongue arch and tension, in that order. I acknowledge that I might not be typical, and you would know more than I what most experience. I still think tension is my biggest issue and is what is limiting my endurance.

While I am not a DHC player I do play a few of them and a even a little above in my daily practice routine. As a test I decided to see how many decibels I could generate on DHC. I ranged between 115 and 125 db on my iPhone 10 microphone. So I think I have enough PSI, but after about an hour of playing lead on Basie stuff my chops start to get tried.

When I breathe I think “Wedge breath” but it’s not the Bobby Shew version it’s the Jim Manley and Pops approach. I don’t even know if either of them call it a wedge but it begins very low in the torso—Jim told me Maynard called it “breathing from your knees”, I pull in my stomach, squeeze my butt cheeks, and squeeze in my intercostals, but keep my chest relaxed, for the upper range.

Back to the OP. I would think the symptom of too little PSI but a correct arch and chops not overly tensioned would be an ever thinner sound as one ascends. But isn’t a big full sound on one note then the next shutting off completely either arch, being too open, or too closed? Or are you more saying that if the air PSI is on the edge, what happens at the top of one’s range can be random?
_________________
Inspiration
Wild Things
Wedge MPs


Last edited by INTJ on Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
INTJ
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 1922
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
Hello INTJ & John,
sorry but there are some wrong things or not known.
The "wedge breath" taught by Bobby Shew, has nothing to do with "breathing from butt, knees".
And the power of this breathing comes, for the exhalation, from the part of the abds muscles that can be assimilated to the hara point.
Sorry if my English doesn't translate exactly what Bobby teaches or the words he would use. But that's the idea.

best


When I breathe I think “Wedge breath” but it’s not the Bobby Shew version it’s the Jim Manley and Pops approach. I don’t even know if either of them call it a wedge but it begins very low in the torso—Jim told me Maynard called it “breathing from your knees”, I pull in my stomach, squeeze my butt cheeks, and squeeze in my intercostals, but keep my chest relaxed, for the upper range.
_________________
Inspiration
Wild Things
Wedge MPs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetchops
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2549

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done a lot of experimenting. I think The problem is a combination of a few things.

The mouthpiece isn't the perfect fit for me. I'm going to call Monette to see what they think.

I'm using pressure to compensate. Not a lot or I wouldn't make it through the night playing lead but, enough to get a little swelling.

I'm pushing to much air through. Again a little swelling.

This would explain why the Trent Austin mouthpiece works for a while. Even though I get a little more room at first, my habits soon cause some swelling.

If I can get Monette to make a mouthpiece with just a little more V than the TA mouthpiece and back off a little I think I might have something.
_________________
Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct.



http://www.trumpetwedding.com/
http://myspace.com/josephspitzertrumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 1852
Location: Amador County, CA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I try messing with my tongue, a different arch or maybe moving the tongue forward, the sound stops.


This screams not having the "knack" as they say. When I apply the tongue arch correctly, the range just zooms up there and and then I am only limited by the strength of the aperture. Not enough strength, the sound gets "gritty" and unpleasant. I can still play there but it doesn't sound nice. So for me it is a combination of the two. I don't ever use pressure except when holding a note up there for a very long time as the aperture muscles start to tire. A moment of horn off of face relieves that and I'm ready to go again.

The "knack" took some time to find. When I mention it to other players they have no idea how to use their arched tongue.
_________________
Richard

For Sale: Cornets: Conn 77A, 80A, King Long Cornet Silvertone, Roth-Reynolds Professional, King Cleveland Superior.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JayKosta
Veteran Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 437
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
... When I apply the tongue arch correctly, the range just zooms up there and and then I am only limited by the strength of the aperture.
...
The "knack" took some time to find. When I mention it to other players they have no idea how to use their arched tongue.

-----------------------------------------------
When you 'apply the tongue arch', do other parts of your embouchure, throat, or jaw also move or react to the tongue movement?

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 1852
Location: Amador County, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Richard III wrote:
... When I apply the tongue arch correctly, the range just zooms up there and and then I am only limited by the strength of the aperture.
...
The "knack" took some time to find. When I mention it to other players they have no idea how to use their arched tongue.

-----------------------------------------------
When you 'apply the tongue arch', do other parts of your embouchure, throat, or jaw also move or react to the tongue movement?

Jay


There is some jaw movement associated with tongue movement and shape but not much. Try saying "you you" repeatedly with your tongue and see what it does to your sound. I give that one to people to get them go up to the next pitch and back down.
_________________
Richard

For Sale: Cornets: Conn 77A, 80A, King Long Cornet Silvertone, Roth-Reynolds Professional, King Cleveland Superior.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cgaiii
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 169
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Playing up there is about finding the feel, and that's it. It's definitely not about strength or doing exercises for months on end.
<snip>
The key to that register, in my opinion, is finding the feel of each note. Once you find the feel, you understand how that register works. It's NOT about brute force.


I like this statement. I think it behooves us to read and try as many techniques as possible until something clicks because the above is true. As with almost anything in trumpet, it is a lot of individual discovery. What clicks for one person to get over any given hurdle may not click for another. When something clicks, you then understand what all your teachers and all you have read actually meant during whatever struggle you are having. That is one of the great things about the posts on this forum. They give a lot of variety of things that have clicked for people and we can try them.
Just an example for high range: Something that really made sense to me was Jason Harrelson's videos on Trumpet Momentum.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=trumpet+momentum

It might not be for everyone but his breaking it down into physical pieces really clicked with me. I found myself just saying to myself: "Just reduce the size of the aperture!" That and getting the horn off my face really eased things up for me. Always more work to do and I know the pieces are not the whole, the mental part and audiation a big part, but sometimes a simple concept can open a door.

This thread is interesting because is shows so many possibilities. Thanks to everyone.
_________________
Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9580
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Playing up there is about finding the feel, and that's it. It's definitely not about strength or doing exercises for months on end.
<snip>
The key to that register, in my opinion, is finding the feel of each note. Once you find the feel, you understand how that register works. It's NOT about brute force.


You're right, it is definitely not about brute force. And yes, the "feel" is not just important, but required. But as I wrote, it requires coordination and strength. Given the fact that the notes from around High D upward require the creation of more air pressure than a typical fit young man can generate, to say that it is "not about strength" is rather misleading. Up to that range, yes, it is mainly about finding the feel. But to play a full power G above High C will require finding the feel and, unless one is built like a linebacker, developing the required strength as well.



Some interesting research was done in Australia that analyzed blowing pressure and how it related to both dynamic sound pressure (volume) and range on the trumpet. Here's the title and abstract:

(Click on the images to open them up full-sized in a separate window.)


https://i.postimg.cc/y6f9yvYd/Blowing-pressure-power-and-spectrum-in-trumpet-playing-Title.jpg




In the research study, trumpet players in general were shown to be able to create more air pressure than typically fit young adult men:


https://i.postimg.cc/ZKCN7pCL/Blowing-pressure-power-and-spectrum-in-trumpet-playing-trumpe.jpg


To play a loud (112 dB) C6 (High D on a Bb Trumpet) player GC generated 25 kPa of air pressure - this is 6 kPa of pressure more than a typical fit young adult man can generate:


https://i.postimg.cc/W1sdRZ4K/Blowing-pressure-power-and-spectrum-in-trumpet-playing-Blowin.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9580
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
Something John Posted got me thinking.

"Do the Claude Gordon Systematic Approach exercises (even just stay on Lesson Two Parts One and Two) for six months *every day religiously, along with 15 to 20 minutes of Irons each day and a Clarke Study each day, and I'll be very, very, very surprised if you are not nailing F's, and maybe F#s and G's with ease. “

There is no way. I have a day job and do play out a lot at night.


It takes me about 20 minutes to do Irons Groups 5 through 12, 8 minutes to single tongue Clarke #1 and the Etude (one repeat on each exercise), 8 minutes to do Systematic Approach Lesson One Part 1, and about 7 minutes to do Systematic Approach Lesson One Part 2 (going up to around a Double Bb most days). All told, about 45 minutes of practice time (not including rests between the different parts of the routine). That said, I rarely (find the time to) do it, but that's at least partially because I play the various exercises back and forth with my students most days of the week, sometimes several times a day.

If you were to do the Irons before leaving for work, you could do the Clarke right when you get home and the Systematic Approach after dinner.

Maybe I over-stressed the "every day religiously" concept - in reality, if you get most of the routine in almost every day, and the Systematic Approach in at least four times a week, I think your range will progress. Those nights you're are playing out are days you wouldn't need to do the whole routine - it could even cause an over-practicing situation.

Note that for pure range building, if you can find the 15 minutes it takes to do just the Systematic Approach Lesson Two Parts 1 and 2 at least 4 or 5 times a week, I think your range will progress.

Best wishes,

John
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group