| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| berntd wrote: | Would a Jupiter JTR606MR with monel valves and rose brass be more expensive than a
606L? |
Back when they were new they certainly were. The rose brass warms the tone, but you have to be careful about the monel - not a good track record there. Still, if the valves are good, the 606MR or 606MRL are fantastic.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
berntd
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That is great info.
So someone is trying to sell me a 606M. He says it has Monel valves and it was new in 2008.
What exactly should I look out for regarding the valves when I see it?
Someone mentioned dark spots but don't all Monel valves go dark after some time?
Regards
Bernt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| berntd wrote: | That is great info.
So someone is trying to sell me a 606M. He says it has Monel valves and it was new in 2008.
What exactly should I look out for regarding the valves when I see it?
Someone mentioned dark spots but don't all Monel valves go dark after some time?
Regards
Bernt |
Monel is not as bright as nickel, but the porosity problem appears as darker stains, usually large blotches, on the grey tone of the piston. What is happening is that very small voids, air pockets, that formed when the monel was first cooling are exposed by the milling of the piston to its final size creating zones of tiny pockets in the surface. These act like a file and fill with small amounts of brass scavenged from the casing walls. Once those spots become more of a brass surface than a monel one, the brass oxidizing in that wet acidic environment develops a tendency to stick - dirty brass to dirty brass.
These stains are fairly visible if you look close. The color of a monel piston is relatively uniform, making these spots stand out.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
berntd
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Location: Sydney
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think I would call those "pristine". There is a fair amount of dried oil and debris on the surface - looks like it wasn't cleaned all that often given that this is only an 11 year old horn.
The lighting, one side only view, and the surface accumulation all make it hard for me to say. I don't see an obvious problem, but I certainly can't say there isn't one from that photo.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
berntd
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks so much for looking
I can't get him to take more photos as he is getting annoyed by all my questions.
Would you pass on it for ~AU$200? ~US$140?
Are the spots I need to look pout for darker than the one seen in the right most valve?
I cannot find ANY examples of this type of problem and not even any reference to Jupiter valve problem for comparing on auntie google.
Regards
Bernt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| berntd wrote: | Would a Jupiter JTR606MR with monel valves and rose brass be more expensive than a
606L? |
It would not be surprising if it were. In the used market though they will be reasonably close.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2438
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| berntd wrote: | Thanks so much for looking
I can't get him to take more photos as he is getting annoyed by all my questions.
Would you pass on it for ~AU$200? ~US$140?
Are the spots I need to look pout for darker than the one seen in the right most valve?
I cannot find ANY examples of this type of problem and not even any reference to Jupiter valve problem for comparing on auntie google.
Regards
Bernt |
I would probably consider it, but I have a number of resources you likely don't. I have contacted Jupiter for replacement pistons before - but fitting them requires certain skills. And I would not as a gift.
Given the lack of cleaning and the abundance of similar horns, in your place I would probably pass. Any time a seller provides less than clear pictures, is reluctant to take more, and the one shows other than the seller's description of "pristine", I expect that there will be some issues.
Since this is intended as a gift, I suggest looking for a better example. They are out there.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 663
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: not pristine valves |
|
|
Those valves are not pristine. The trumpet hasn't been taken care of properly. I would look somewhere else for a trumpet.
_________________
King 603 cornet
Yamaha 2330 cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold cornet mouthpiece
Yamaha 11 e4 cornet mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
berntd
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you again!
I took your kind advice into consideration and came to a final decision not to buy that one.
I still have 2 weeks to find something and if all else fails, I could still buy a new one.
Regards
Bernt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 663
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:14 pm Post subject: Demo horns |
|
|
Does your local music store have any demo horns for sale? Cheaper than new trumpets, but still in good shape.
If you can afford to buy a new trumpet, buy it.
_________________
King 603 cornet
Yamaha 2330 cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold cornet mouthpiece
Yamaha 11 e4 cornet mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| She's probably got a new horn by this time, but on the off chance she hasn't I'd get her something more intermediate/pro. If your budget can deal with it, a Yamaha 4335G isn't a bad trumpet to start with. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
berntd
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No, not yet. After seeing - shall we say - a few horns (enough anyway) on the weekend, I will go and see one more today.
I am now leaning towards Yamaha.
In the music store, they want me to buy a new old stock JTR-1100 for a really good price (year right, I nearly fell over) but when I tried it, I found that the mouthpiece connector hole was oval and too big and the mouthpiece remained loose, however many different mouthpieces they tried. They also told me that the Jupiter quality is somewhat variable at times.
From someone else, I tried a used Jupiter JT-606MRst with Rose brass Bell and sterling silver leadpipe and it looked VERY nice. It was supposedly serviced and ready to go.
I then discovered that the valves would stick when one pressed them slightly to the side. The man said he would rectify that and let me know. He did let me know same evening that it was fixed but that someone else is really interested and so I told him good luck.
I tried some Yamaha YTR-1335s and they were pretty good actually. Nice to play and nive feel but somewhat more expensive and they looked pretty well used. So passed on them.
However today, I will go see a 4 year old Yamaha YTR-2330 for a fairly ok price . Hopefully I can strike a deal this time.
There is a 4330 or 4335 for sale for a really good price but it has been engraved with someone's name and that is not suitable for a present.
Regards
Bernt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
berntd
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wohoo, success!!
From setting out to buy a Jupiter, I ended up buying Yamaha instead!
My success is based on yet another sad story of well meaning parents spending big on a nice instrument for their kid in the hope it will take off, only to find the kid is allergic to work and making an effort...
It is a 3 year old YTR-2330. Looks like brand new. with 2 cases and even some music books.
The slides were stuck but I fixed that it is beautiful in all aspects.
Hey, I took it to work today to show some of my colleagues.
I was surprised to discover that they do not even know that this is called a trumpet!
I thought that was basic knowledge for anyone -- Wrong 
Regards
Bernt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jondrowjf@gmail.com
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016
Posts: 663
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:01 pm Post subject: Time for a bath |
|
|
Congrats on your new trumpet. Excellent choice.
I imagine the previous owner did not clean the inside of the trumpet.
Now for the trumpet care kit. Cleaning snake, valve brush and mouthpiece brush. Also valve oil and slide grease.
Time for a the trumpet's first warm bath. Line the bottom of the sink with a towel, add dawn dish detergent and warm water. Take the trumpet apart. Start at the valves, take off the buttons, top caps. Take the felts off the valve stems. Keep the buttons and felts, etc. outside of the water.
Take the slides out of the trumpets, mouthpiece, and the trumpet body. I place the trumpet body and everything else on the side.
After soaking for a least an hour, rinse off the trumpet body. Soak the cleaning snake in isopropyl alcohol. Clean the leadpipe and then clean the valve block. Clean the valves with microfiber cloth soaked in alcohol. Use qtips to clean the holes in the valves. I use soap pads to clean off the slide grease residue. Clean the mouthpiece.
Let the trumpet dry for awhile. Reassemble the trumpet. On the slides I use slide grease, then valve oil.
Its amazing how filthy the inside of a trumpet can be. The holes in the valves and bottom especially.
I have bought my cornets advertised as trumpets.
_________________
King 603 cornet
Yamaha 2330 cornet
Denis Wick 4 W classic gold cornet mouthpiece
Yamaha 11 e4 cornet mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
berntd
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2019
Posts: 56
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello and thanks for the details.
I am all over it. Done!
It is just so nice, almost a pity that I have to give away as a present.
Oh well, maybe in 6 months time, I can get it back, if it doe snot take off 
Best of all is that I now have the next few events covered for gift ideas, for the woman that has everything.
Regards
Bernt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AJCarter
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Indiana
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | berntd wrote: | That is great info.
So someone is trying to sell me a 606M. He says it has Monel valves and it was new in 2008.
What exactly should I look out for regarding the valves when I see it?
Someone mentioned dark spots but don't all Monel valves go dark after some time?
Regards
Bernt |
Monel is not as bright as nickel, but the porosity problem appears as darker stains, usually large blotches, on the grey tone of the piston. What is happening is that very small voids, air pockets, that formed when the monel was first cooling are exposed by the milling of the piston to its final size creating zones of tiny pockets in the surface. These act like a file and fill with small amounts of brass scavenged from the casing walls. Once those spots become more of a brass surface than a monel one, the brass oxidizing in that wet acidic environment develops a tendency to stick - dirty brass to dirty brass.
These stains are fairly visible if you look close. The color of a monel piston is relatively uniform, making these spots stand out. |
I've encountered that on a few horns of much higher quality than Jupiter but one particular anecdote is a friend's P5-4 had awful sticking due to this. The local repair guru gently polished those spots and then cleaned the piston thoroughly. After that the sticking was gone.
_________________
(List horns here) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
