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BfB
New Member
Joined: 21 May 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Greater Chicago Area
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 Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Unless I missed it, you still haven't addressed the issue of parents being confronted later with having to still buy another instrument, the conventional trumpet. If I were that parent, I would be pretty miffed. |
Still learning how to use this forum, so maybe my response is not appearing? Here it is again. (the short answer is that in most cases the school purchases the instrument, not the parent.)
“Although we do get individual orders from parents wanting to start their child with the program at home (obviously brass playing parents), or from brass instructors who start students in a private setting, this instrument is really designed as a general music classroom instrument. Schools purchase a classroom set which they keep at school and rotate to the entire grade level year after year. The instrument has no moving parts and was designed to be extremely robust, which means the investment means years of brass education for an entire grade level.”
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Coemgen
Regular Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Can a beginner sound more partials with the BfB Natural Trumpet than one can with, for example, a G/F or B-Flat Field Trumpet?
I ask this because I'm trying to learn to sound Taps with the goal of volunteering for Bugles Across America. Until my tongue and palatal muscles have been sufficiently trained to sound the sixth partial well enough to play most bugle calls and marches in G or B-Flat, it would be nice to practice with an instrument where the sixth partial is not so challenging to sound. |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Unless I missed it, you still haven't addressed the issue of parents being confronted later with having to still buy another instrument, the conventional trumpet. If I were that parent, I would be pretty miffed. |
I think perhaps you did miss it:
He said:
“Although we do get individual orders from parents wanting to start their child with the program at home (obviously brass playing parents), or from brass instructors who start students in a private setting, this instrument is really designed as a general music classroom instrument. Schools purchase a classroom set which they keep at school and rotate to the entire grade level year after year. The instrument has no moving parts and was designed to be extremely robust, which means the investment means years of brass education for an entire grade level.
https://www.brassforbeginners.com/collections/teacher-packages/products/full-classroom-set
That all being said, IMO, this is not in the same category as recorders, keyed percussion, etc., because it requires a brass embouchure, many general music classroom instruments don’t require anything near that. In the school district where I teach lessons, beginners start in sixth grade. Honestly, I would be concerned that having kids try this natural trumpet in general music classes prior to starting on conventional trumpets might discourage them from wanting to start as beginners on trumpet at all.
I can just hear a kid telling his parents “those things are too HARD.”
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Coemgen
Regular Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | ...In the school district where I teach lessons, beginners start in sixth grade. Honestly, I would be concerned that having kids try this natural trumpet in general music classes prior to starting on conventional trumpets might discourage them from wanting to start as beginners on trumpet at all.
I can just hear a kid telling his parents “those things are too HARD.”
Brad |
Well then, start the kids with vuvuzelas. Kids love vuvuzelas! Kids seem to have no trouble developing a brass embouchure to play one. Vuvuzelas are also very inexpensive! |
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Robert P
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2594
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm curious if LAZARUSBLUE who joined 4/10/19 and has exactly one post on 4/19 which happens to be about this plastic horn has a connection to BfB who joined 5/21 and all of whose posts are in this one thread - the title of which has changed.
Was this question asked for the purpose of BfB answering it to avoid the "no selling instruments in the forum" policy? If not how did BfB even know this thread existed?
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ohnecael
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Mar 2018
Posts: 75
Location: Fort Wayne IN
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Unless I missed it, you still haven't addressed the issue of parents being confronted later with having to still buy another instrument, the conventional trumpet. If I were that parent, I would be pretty miffed. |
from what i have gathered out of the numerous replies hes made, I assume that this is not a teaching approach that is feasible for single students. The best solution Bfb has given is the "buying in bulk" approach. I see this more for a group setting only and if i was a parent in a program i'd feel pretty annoyed too if i had to pay 150 for a plastic teaching tool and another few hundred for a real horn.
So instead of the parent paying the teacher ends up dropping a thousand dollars plus or a school ends up dropping said amount. i can really only see this used for a general music program where kids are trying to see what they want to play or even play at all.
I think these paired with a Venova in a general music course to see which type of instrument they prefer could be very valuable but its still a large stretch.
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Coemgen wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | ...In the school district where I teach lessons, beginners start in sixth grade. Honestly, I would be concerned that having kids try this natural trumpet in general music classes prior to starting on conventional trumpets might discourage them from wanting to start as beginners on trumpet at all.
I can just hear a kid telling his parents “those things are too HARD.”
Brad |
Well then, start the kids with vuvuzelas. Kids love vuvuzelas! Kids seem to have no trouble developing a brass embouchure to play one. Vuvuzelas are also very inexpensive! |
So, what am I missing here? I mentioned that the necessity of developing a brass embouchure for the natural trumpet might discourage a kid from going forward and trying a traditional trumpet, how would starting them on a vuvuzela WHICH ALSO REQUIRES A BASIC BRASS EMBOUCHURE make things any better? Kids might love making noise on a vuvuzela, that’s not quite the same thing as learning how to form a proper brass embouchure.
IMO, I still see no upside, and some downside to trying to start beginners on these “instruments.” Wait until the kid is physically and emotionally at least close to being ready to start on a trumpet (or even better, especially for very small kids), cornet. I think we’re trying to fix what isn’t broken here.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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BfB
New Member
Joined: 21 May 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Greater Chicago Area
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | Coemgen wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | ...In the school district where I teach lessons, beginners start in sixth grade. Honestly, I would be concerned that having kids try this natural trumpet in general music classes prior to starting on conventional trumpets might discourage them from wanting to start as beginners on trumpet at all.
I can just hear a kid telling his parents “those things are too HARD.”
Brad |
Well then, start the kids with vuvuzelas. Kids love vuvuzelas! Kids seem to have no trouble developing a brass embouchure to play one. Vuvuzelas are also very inexpensive! |
So, what am I missing here? I mentioned that the necessity of developing a brass embouchure for the natural trumpet might discourage a kid from going forward and trying a traditional trumpet, how would starting them on a vuvuzela WHICH ALSO REQUIRES A BASIC BRASS EMBOUCHURE make things any better? Kids might love making noise on a vuvuzela, that’s not quite the same thing as learning how to form a proper brass embouchure.
IMO, I still see no upside, and some downside to trying to start beginners on these “instruments.” Wait until the kid is physically and emotionally at least close to being ready to start on a trumpet (or even better, especially for very small kids), cornet. I think we’re trying to fix what isn’t broken here.
Brad |
Hello Brad,
Just wanted to clear this up- the idea of the program is not to teach children how to play natural trumpets, it is to teach them the basics of brass playing using the natural trumpet as a teaching tool. Without looking into our methodology it is understandable why you might think that playing the natural trumpet is too hard for beginners, but we have been running programs now for 14 years and never heard a student say "it is too hard!" On the contrary, since they aren't having to deal with valves or slides, or reading music for that matter, the time can be spent on developing the fundamentals that are central to playing all modern brass instruments. Another goal of the program is to increase access, to provide all students an opportunity to discover their ability to play brass. In our local school district, in Evanston, IL, they have decided to spread the program to all 18 elementary schools over the next few years. That means that every student in the district will have a chance to learn something significant about brass playing, not just the ones who want to join band and get lucky on the first try. Take a look at the program if you get a chance- it is supported by people like Alison Balsom, Gabriele Cassone, Terry Everson, Brian Shaw, Crispian Steele-Perkins, the Historic Brass Society, etc. There is much more to the program than learning brass fundamentals. It is an interdisciplinary curriculum that brings the history of lip-blown instruments to life, thereby giving meaning and context to sound production, inspiring creativity from the start. Learn more at:
www.brassforbeginners.com
www.bfbresources.com
Best wishes,
Chris
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| BfB wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | Coemgen wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | ...In the school district where I teach lessons, beginners start in sixth grade. Honestly, I would be concerned that having kids try this natural trumpet in general music classes prior to starting on conventional trumpets might discourage them from wanting to start as beginners on trumpet at all.
I can just hear a kid telling his parents “those things are too HARD.”
Brad |
Well then, start the kids with vuvuzelas. Kids love vuvuzelas! Kids seem to have no trouble developing a brass embouchure to play one. Vuvuzelas are also very inexpensive! |
So, what am I missing here? I mentioned that the necessity of developing a brass embouchure for the natural trumpet might discourage a kid from going forward and trying a traditional trumpet, how would starting them on a vuvuzela WHICH ALSO REQUIRES A BASIC BRASS EMBOUCHURE make things any better? Kids might love making noise on a vuvuzela, that’s not quite the same thing as learning how to form a proper brass embouchure.
IMO, I still see no upside, and some downside to trying to start beginners on these “instruments.” Wait until the kid is physically and emotionally at least close to being ready to start on a trumpet (or even better, especially for very small kids), cornet. I think we’re trying to fix what isn’t broken here.
Brad |
Hello Brad,
Just wanted to clear this up- the idea of the program is not to teach children how to play natural trumpets, it is to teach them the basics of brass playing using the natural trumpet as a teaching tool. Without looking into our methodology it is understandable why you might think that playing the natural trumpet is too hard for beginners, but we have been running programs now for 14 years and never heard a student say "it is too hard!" On the contrary, since they aren't having to deal with valves or slides, or reading music for that matter, the time can be spent on developing the fundamentals that are central to playing all modern brass instruments. Another goal of the program is to increase access, to provide all students an opportunity to discover their ability to play brass. In our local school district, in Evanston, IL, they have decided to spread the program to all 18 elementary schools over the next few years. That means that every student in the district will have a chance to learn something significant about brass playing, not just the ones who want to join band and get lucky on the first try. Take a look at the program if you get a chance- it is supported by people like Alison Balsom, Gabriele Cassone, Terry Everson, Brian Shaw, Crispian Steele-Perkins, the Historic Brass Society, etc. There is much more to the program than learning brass fundamentals. It is an interdisciplinary curriculum that brings the history of lip-blown instruments to life, thereby giving meaning and context to sound production, inspiring creativity from the start. Learn more at:
www.brassforbeginners.com
www.bfbresources.com
Best wishes,
Chris |
Hi Chris,
I understand you’re not trying to teach kids to play natural trumpets per se. If your success rate in getting kids started on a brass instrument using your method is higher than more traditional methods (ie, just starting students on conventional brass instruments), cool. And by success rate I mean a higher percentage of kids continuing past the first two years than we typically see in traditional beginning brass classes, and making faster improvement.
But if it’s not, I’m not sure there is much gain in using your methods.
Hey, just because I’m not familiar with your pedagogy certainly doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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BfB
New Member
Joined: 21 May 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Greater Chicago Area
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | BfB wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | Coemgen wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | ...In the school district where I teach lessons, beginners start in sixth grade. Honestly, I would be concerned that having kids try this natural trumpet in general music classes prior to starting on conventional trumpets might discourage them from wanting to start as beginners on trumpet at all.
I can just hear a kid telling his parents “those things are too HARD.”
Brad |
Well then, start the kids with vuvuzelas. Kids love vuvuzelas! Kids seem to have no trouble developing a brass embouchure to play one. Vuvuzelas are also very inexpensive! |
So, what am I missing here? I mentioned that the necessity of developing a brass embouchure for the natural trumpet might discourage a kid from going forward and trying a traditional trumpet, how would starting them on a vuvuzela WHICH ALSO REQUIRES A BASIC BRASS EMBOUCHURE make things any better? Kids might love making noise on a vuvuzela, that’s not quite the same thing as learning how to form a proper brass embouchure.
IMO, I still see no upside, and some downside to trying to start beginners on these “instruments.” Wait until the kid is physically and emotionally at least close to being ready to start on a trumpet (or even better, especially for very small kids), cornet. I think we’re trying to fix what isn’t broken here.
Brad |
Hello Brad,
Just wanted to clear this up- the idea of the program is not to teach children how to play natural trumpets, it is to teach them the basics of brass playing using the natural trumpet as a teaching tool. Without looking into our methodology it is understandable why you might think that playing the natural trumpet is too hard for beginners, but we have been running programs now for 14 years and never heard a student say "it is too hard!" On the contrary, since they aren't having to deal with valves or slides, or reading music for that matter, the time can be spent on developing the fundamentals that are central to playing all modern brass instruments. Another goal of the program is to increase access, to provide all students an opportunity to discover their ability to play brass. In our local school district, in Evanston, IL, they have decided to spread the program to all 18 elementary schools over the next few years. That means that every student in the district will have a chance to learn something significant about brass playing, not just the ones who want to join band and get lucky on the first try. Take a look at the program if you get a chance- it is supported by people like Alison Balsom, Gabriele Cassone, Terry Everson, Brian Shaw, Crispian Steele-Perkins, the Historic Brass Society, etc. There is much more to the program than learning brass fundamentals. It is an interdisciplinary curriculum that brings the history of lip-blown instruments to life, thereby giving meaning and context to sound production, inspiring creativity from the start. Learn more at:
www.brassforbeginners.com
www.bfbresources.com
Best wishes,
Chris |
Hi Chris,
I understand you’re not trying to teach kids to play natural trumpets per se. If your success rate in getting kids started on a brass instrument using your method is higher than more traditional methods (ie, just starting students on conventional brass instruments), cool. And by success rate I mean a higher percentage of kids continuing past the first two years than we typically see in traditional beginning brass classes, and making faster improvement.
But if it’s not, I’m not sure there is much gain in using your methods.
Hey, just because I’m not familiar with your pedagogy certainly doesn’t mean it doesn’t have merit.
Brad |
Hello Brad,
Thanks for the followup- I think you are the only person on this entire thread that actually followed up after I responded to various points- much appreciated! What we have seen over the past decade plus is that the students who move on to modern brass instruments after doing this program are much more likely to continue, and they tend to be leaders in their instrumental music programs. We have other educational goals, like to get students thinking more about the origins of music and how music relates to human civilization, to inspire students to make connections to the humanities- art, history, social studies, etc.., and one of my personal goals of the program is that after doing this program, students will have a much better understanding/appreciation for what professional brass players are doing on stage. Let's face it, most people think that you make notes on brass instruments by pushing valves or moving slides. After spending 8-15 weeks with a natural trumpet, students have gained a deep insight into how brass instruments actually work.
If you ever want to take a look at the program, the best thing to look at (for free) is the Program Overview which you can view/download here: http://www.bfbresources.com/teachers/
Thanks again for your questions!
Cheers,
Chris
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bike&ed
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Posts: 1837
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey Brad361, remember that you're in Texas, home of the most competitive band programs in the USA by a pretty far ways. From what I've seen in many other states, some structured harmonic series training could be incredibly helpful, often all the way through high school. |
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Coemgen
Regular Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2019
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| BfB wrote: | ... What we have seen over the past decade plus is that the students who move on to modern brass instruments after doing this program are much more likely to continue, and they tend to be leaders in their instrumental music programs. We have other educational goals, like to get students thinking more about the origins of music and how music relates to human civilization, to inspire students to make connections to the humanities- art, history, social studies, etc.., and one of my personal goals of the program is that after doing this program, students will have a much better understanding/appreciation for what professional brass players are doing on stage. Let's face it, most people think that you make notes on brass instruments by pushing valves or moving slides. After spending 8-15 weeks with a natural trumpet, students have gained a deep insight into how brass instruments actually work.
If you ever want to take a look at the program, the best thing to look at (for free) is the Program Overview which you can view/download here: http://www.bfbresources.com/teachers/
Thanks again for your questions!
Cheers,
Chris |
... and, one can have a lot of fun playing just using only the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th partials: https://youtu.be/CZrYhYXzGLQ |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| bike&ed wrote: | | Hey Brad361, remember that you're in Texas, home of the most competitive band programs in the USA by a pretty far ways. From what I've seen in many other states, some structured harmonic series training could be incredibly helpful, often all the way through high school. |
You’re correct, I’m not sure if this would be a tough sell in the schools where I teach or not. My first impression was that it would be (tough), maybe not though. School starts where I teach today, lessons start next week, I might speak to some directors about this.
Brad
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