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Gap/insertion amount for Yamaha Xeno/6335 models


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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher is a big fan of Reeves sleeves to determine the optimum gap. But once he chose the desired sleeve he had it soldered on and the hex turned down so you can't even tell it's sleeved. Of all the sleeve users I've encountered, he's the only one who has done this. Note that this is his main setup that uses for his main horn and a few others. For some horns, even other Bbs he uses different mouthpieces.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:

Hi Lou,
I imagine that Jim could do this, but I've never gone this route, as I'm perfectly happy with sleeves, and if I do want to change any of my instruments, I can just change the sleeve if my existing 6.5 sleeves, don't gap well in a different trumpet.


Hi Charlie

Thank you.

You are very welcome.

Fair enough. I guess the final end game would be putting all the parameters together in a one piece mouthpiece, but it seems that it is not necessary.

I personally don't think that it is necessary, but I believe that this is really a case of personal preference.

I just always have a little curiosity about the next step. I greatly appreciate your walking me through your process and thinking.

You are very welcome.

Charlie

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,

I'll let you know what I work out. I will see how far I take it. As you say, you don't feel any loss with the modular mouthpiece and sleeves unless things are loose.

I guess that soldering the sleeve like cheiden's teacher does would be pretty much the same as a solid mouthpiece in the end.

All great food for though as I move though this experiment.

Might be fun to have the gap modulator to play with just for fun and for testing trumpets, but I may skip it.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
My teacher is a big fan of Reeves sleeves to determine the optimum gap. But once he chose the desired sleeve he had it soldered on and the hex turned down so you can't even tell it's sleeved. Of all the sleeve users I've encountered, he's the only one who has done this. Note that this is his main setup that uses for his main horn and a few others. For some horns, even other Bbs he uses different mouthpieces.


Hi Cheiden

Goes to show that we are all different. This is not the first time I've heard of this, but your teacher's reason for doing this would be interesting to know. Presumably since he has the hex turned down (which I've also previously heard of people having done when they have sleeves soldered on), it isn't simply a case of him having the sleeve soldered on to resist the temptation of further experimentation. Most likely, he would like to replicate the feel of a one piece unsleeved mouthpiece, which necessitates also turning down the hex. Fair enough! Since I haven't had this done, and compared the resultant mouthpiece to an equivalent one with a removable sleeve, I'm not sure how and by how much they vary. Obviously your teacher thinks that it results in an improvement.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3274
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
... once he chose the desired sleeve he had it soldered on and the hex turned down so you can't even tell it's sleeved. ...

--------------------------------
Removing the hex also prevent the problem of someone putting a wrench on it - not realizing that the sleeve is soldered.

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Lou,

Hi Charlie

I'll let you know what I work out.

Please do.

I will see how far I take it. As you say, you don't feel any loss with the modular mouthpiece and sleeves unless things are loose.

Yes, or at least, I haven't noticed any deficit if there is one. Maybe I would find one if I was to do a direct comparison between my existing mouthpiece, and a one piece version of the same, with the shank made to replicate the insertion amount of the 6.5 sleeve, but since I'm completely happy with my mouthpieces as they are, I'm not planning on trying this.

I guess that soldering the sleeve like cheiden's teacher does would be pretty much the same as a solid mouthpiece in the end.

Yes, I think so.

All great food for though as I move though this experiment.

Definitely!

Might be fun to have the gap modulator to play with just for fun and for testing trumpets, but I may skip it.

I think that you definitely could miss out my first step, and just start with a mouthpiece cut for sleeves and a selection of sleeves, but like you say, the gap modulator may be both fun and useful for experimenting with gap on different trumpets.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
cheiden wrote:
... once he chose the desired sleeve he had it soldered on and the hex turned down so you can't even tell it's sleeved. ...

--------------------------------
Removing the hex also prevent the problem of someone putting a wrench on it - not realizing that the sleeve is soldered.

Jay


Hi Jay

Very true, but maybe it is just my experience, but I've never had a sleeve get stuck on, and have sometimes had the experience of removing the mouthpiece and leaving the sleeve in the receiver. I'd therefore personally be surprised that someone could presume that a sleeve is stuck and put a wrench on it, but then again I'm familiar with the idea of soldering sleeves on.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a brief update on this topic.

I had been satisfactorily using the shims, but every time I swab the lead pipe, I dislodge the shim. They are great for trying out all kinds of gaps quickly, though, and I think I got the gaps settled. One correction is that when I thought I was using the 0.040" shim, it was actually a 0.060" shim, so the conversation revolving around 0.5 mm has to be corrected. So the correction I am making for my Kanstul C trumpet with the shim was 1.5+ mm, not 1.0 as Lou and I discussed. I still have to go back and experiment with the Yamaha YTR-6335 again between the 0.04" (1.0 mm) and 0.06" (1.5 mm) shim.

In the meantime, I was kind of wondering if shimming from the venturi and moving the gap back was different from moving the end of the shank of the mouthpiece closer, so I ordered a Gap Modulator on my middle ground mouthpiece (1.5C with 26 throat , standard 10 backbore). When it came, the sleeve was a little wider than the original mouthpiece, so at furthest adjustment I could only narrow the gap about 0.04" (1 mm). However, this rig plays pretty nicely on the C trumpet. I have a smaller Modulator sleeve on the way and will narrow the gap even further and do some comparisons with the shims when I get it.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
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