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Custom Flugels vs Mass Produced Flugels



 
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:48 pm    Post subject: Custom Flugels vs Mass Produced Flugels Reply with quote

What are your thoughts? What are the advantages to a custom horn as opposed to a mass produced horn and vice versa? Pricing included. I have seen multiple comments on TH where it has been stated that Yamaha is the industry standard. I don't work in the commercial/studio scene or play with a professional symphony orchestra, so I can't say with any authority that the above statement it true. What are some guiding points to making a purchase on a horn not considered the "industry standard"? Does it go beyond "I sound good on this horn"?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion industry standard means that something works (very reliably) for a very long time hence everyone is using it. Because everyone uses it there is an aspect of sheer number of said equipment and to me it also means the pricing is such that it can become a standard. Odd, offbeat or extremely expensive tools will have a hard time becoming industry standrads.

Maybe think Boeing 737 before they started bringing out the MAX version. It is "reasonably cheap", reliable, and works for almost everyone.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Custom Flugels vs Mass Produced Flugels Reply with quote

DJtpt31 wrote:
What are some guiding points to making a purchase on a horn not considered the "industry standard"? Does it go beyond "I sound good on this horn"?

Assuming a horn works smoothly and dependably mechanically and isn't going to fall apart under normal use "I sound good on this horn" is the primary standard that should matter.

Also be aware that the mouthpiece can make a big difference.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems there is less of a "Mainstream" flugelhorn model list than there is for trumpets. Loads of effort and monetary investment has been put forth by Yamaha and Conn-Selmer over numerous decades in order to earn their top spots in the market.

When I searched out the market for my first flugelhorn, I gravitated toward the Kanstul 1025, but tried the similar Yamaha, as well. I played a Blessing and a Jupiter, too. In the end, I bought the Kanstul, which was a new brand for me, because it seemed to play as well as or better than any other brand I tried, I had been able to visit the factory and had begun to know some of its people, and for me the Kanstul products felt familiar and have a bit of an X-factor. One might call it a soul, as though the craftsmen who fabricated its parts and assembled it into an instrument had imparted something of themselves into it. It is something that felt tangible to me and still does.

So, I don't care how much the mainstream brands are touted in the marketplace and on the forums. I know I have two of the finest playing and sounding horns that can be bought. I know the people responsible for bringing them to market and they are my friends. It's a powerful combination.
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oljackboy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems as if the older Yamaha 631/731 flugelhorns have become the default horns in the market. These have a combination of sound, quality, and value that have earned them that status.
With that said, there are many flugelhorns that I prefer, and none of them are inexpensive. Van Laar, Eclipse, Scodwell, Adams, Taylor and others. I have a Taylor Standard in copper with Bauerfiend valves that was my final choice. The issue for me was ONLY about how I sound on each different flugelhorn. Price was not the issue. I am, admittedly, a hardware freak. Really well-made things have real appeal to me. All of the horns that I mentioned have that kind of appeal. Not that the Yamahas are not well-built. They are. But high-end horns have a feel about them that is noticeable. Combine that with a sound that lets me sound the way I want to and my answer is yes, there is a definite attraction to custom high-end flugelhorns compared with the mass-marketed ones. YMMV
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
In my opinion industry standard means that something works (very reliably) for a very long time hence everyone is using it. Because everyone uses it there is an aspect of sheer number of said equipment and to me it also means the pricing is such that it can become a standard.


Very well put! It seems like the Yamaha's and Vintage One's are widely used, perhaps because they have been around so long and because of marketing strategies and reliability. My initial inquiry would be to look into these horns first, so a custom horn wouldn't even be considered, at least not at the very beginning.

Brassnose wrote:
Odd, offbeat or extremely expensive tools will have a hard time becoming industry standrads.

I saw Kanstul horns and thought these are really nice horns, but had to consider do I want to purchase a Kanstul horn when I can buy a Yamaha, Bach, V1, etc., horns that are being used by "the pros" for the same price or less? It was for that reason why Kanstul didn't make my list some time ago.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
It seems there is less of a "Mainstream" flugelhorn model list than there is for trumpets. Loads of effort and monetary investment has been put forth by Yamaha and Conn-Selmer over numerous decades in order to earn their top spots in the market.


I think that may be the reason why those brands are widely used compared to perhaps some of the other available mass produced brands and custom horns.

shofarguy wrote:
When I searched out the market for my first flugelhorn, I gravitated toward the Kanstul 1025, but tried the similar Yamaha, as well. I played a Blessing and a Jupiter, too. In the end, I bought the Kanstul, which was a new brand for me, because it seemed to play as well as or better than any other brand I tried, I had been able to visit the factory and had begun to know some of its people, and for me the Kanstul products felt familiar and have a bit of an X-factor. One might call it a soul, as though the craftsmen who fabricated its parts and assembled it into an instrument had imparted something of themselves into it. It is something that felt tangible to me and still does.

So, I don't care how much the mainstream brands are touted in the marketplace and on the forums. I know I have two of the finest playing and sounding horns that can be bought. I know the people responsible for bringing them to market and they are my friends. It's a powerful combination.


My first assumption was I didn't hear or know of any "mainstream" player using a Kanstul horn--at least they weren't advertising that they were using one. So I concluded, "why then would I purchase this horn if no one else seems to be using it? I should just stick with what everyone else is using." They were also more expensive the mass produced horns. I think the last batch of 1525's were being sold for $2,500 or so at a discount!!! That is roughly the same price for the V1 new in lacquer and the 631G is a little less expensive than that.

I do appreciate what you said about the craftsmenship and the relationships that have resulted from the work of Kanstul horns. That is really power. Thanks for sharing!
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that there are a number of really good mass-produced flugals available. I'd be surprised given the number of options available that any particular player couldn't find horn to fall in love with. The only reason I can think of for going custom would be if a beloved horn was missing a feature. If you go custom just because then you're putting a lot of faith into that maker and risking paying a relative lot of $ with an uncertain outcome.

Of course, given unlimited time and money, I think it would be a hoot to work with a shop on something totally new. Then again, with a surplus of resources, I think I would likely use them to fly around as needed to trial all the great horns, since it's unlikely that any one retail shop is going to have all makes and models. Flying to the factories, where available would probably be better still.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Seems to me that there are a number of really good mass-produced flugals available. I'd be surprised given the number of options available that any particular player couldn't find horn to fall in love with. The only reason I can think of for going custom would be if a beloved horn was missing a feature. If you go custom just because then you're putting a lot of faith into that maker and risking paying a relative lot of $ with an uncertain outcome.


I see Getzen Custom Reserve and Edwards X-19 which are priced more than the yamaha's, bach's, conn's, XO Jupiters. I'm not familiar with anyone using those horns. The last batch of the Kanstul 1525 was price at the same price point of the Conn Vintage One in lacquer and the these horns had some blemishes to them.

cheiden wrote:

Of course, given unlimited time and money, I think it would be a hoot to work with a shop on something totally new. Then again, with a surplus of resources, I think I would likely use them to fly around as needed to trial all the great horns, since it's unlikely that any one retail shop is going to have all makes and models. Flying to the factories, where available would probably be better still.


That would be very cool to do!

On my list are the Conn Vintage One, Bach 183, Blessing, XO Jupiter, Adams F1. I haven't played any of them, but I have heard good reviews on these horns. The problem is there is nowhere where you can try these horns. Sure the music store and order them for you but what good does that do if I don't like the horn. Waiting patiently for the next NAMM and ITG.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my Wild Thing flugel and Flip was great to work with. I like getting the personal attention plus gained a friend. Oh, and it plays like a dream, natch.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have this feeling that you think that the cutsom made or "boutique" instruments are significanlty more hands-on versus a top line big company horn.. I think that there is much less difference than you may think. Even in the factories, ala Back, there is a lot of artistry in the build of an instrument, Most of the difference is that they have many people involve-each having a specific or small number of tasks vs. the custom shops where a few people are involved. The most notable distinction beyond design differences will be quality control. In the "factory" you don't know this person(s).. at the shop you know it's "Smitty"

Flugels seem to have even more of a spectrum of tone and play than trumpets. I'd add that you might want to be careful that your finding one that will not only give a pleasing sound, good intonation, but one that also will blend in the ensemble.
Some Flugels I've played also have a nature that requires them to be familiar with.. you can't leave it in the case for weeks then expect it to feel good at the gig; others you can just pick up and play. This is one of the big charms of the Yamaha 631 - plays/feels like playing a trumpet but give a wonderful sound.
I've been playing a Bach for a while, I love the sound and feel but seems like I have to stay current with it or when I pick it up after a period of time, I am not as pleased as I'd like to be.

Then the question is: what are you using for? Soloist in a combo, Brass Band or every now and then when called for in music?

Conn, Getzen, Yamaha, Bach, Schilke, Benge, Couesnon, Kanstul, King... all worthy Flugels

I'm personally not sold on some of the newer offerings: XO Jupiter, CarolBrass, etc. - play well at the shop, but I wonder about how they'll stand up and sound ensembles/on stage...

If you want to go top of the line - Van Laar #1 and Adams #2 in my book.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are someone who does a large portion of your income generating work on flugel, go as custom as you want. If it is only occasional playing I'd try to find a good solid one that wont break the bank. As others have said there are plenty big name brands that play great.

Remember: The flugel is your friend, the trumpet is your spouse. Dont mix up the two, or else you'll lose your house! (Unless you make your living on Flugel of course...)
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flip does go through his horns personally before shipping them out.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have two flugels: A Kanstul 1525 and an Adams F2. The Kanstul is a "mass produced" horn and mine is exactly how it came from the factory (copper bell with lacquer finish). The Adams is a "custom" horn made specifically for me with a gold brass bell with nickel silver flair, custom bracing and a gold plated finish.

The Kanstul produces a dark and diffused sound. The Adams produces a sound not quite as dark as the Kanstul with a little bit of an edge and more focus.

The playing characteristics are not identical but are similar. There's not enough difference in the playing characteristics to make any significant difference to me. I adapt to whichever horn I'm playing.

The Kanstul has regular throw valves. The Adams has short throw valves. I like the short throw valves but the regular throw valves work fine.

There is no significant difference between the Kanstul and Adams as to build quality, at least to my perception.

They both fall into the category of "a decent horn in good working condition." Either would work well for a player.

The main criteria in choosing a flugel are these:

1. Whether it's a decent horn in good working condition.
2. What sound it produces.

So, make certain the horn satisfies you as to the above two criteria. As far as playing characteristics go, you'll adapt to whatever they are.

As long as it's a decent horn in good working condition and it produces a sound you like there's not much that can go wrong.

Customization may change a characteristic but that doesn't mean the change is a positive one for you or even detectable by you. The same goes for fine tuning the horn (valve alignments, solder removal, etc.)
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
I have this feeling that you think that the cutsom made or "boutique" instruments are significanlty more hands-on versus a top line big company horn.. I think that there is much less difference than you may think.


I do. A big factory, I believe, would have access to machinery to make certain parts where a custom shop may not and would need to create the part by hand resulting in more time spend hence the price difference.

zaferis wrote:

but one that also will blend in the ensemble.


Nailed it! My personal mantra is I am interested in an instrument that will play well (no added intonation quirks), produce a sound based on my aural image, all with some ease of playing. However, part of my "5 year plan" is to find opportunities to play/work with others, so I would then need to consider the tools that I work with to work well when playing with others. Some musicians tend to be "delicate/sensitive" so blending would have to have some level of importance to me when seeking a horn. What is the purpose of having a horn: Blessing, Bach, Stomvi, Schilke, Adams, Scodwell, Burbank, Benge, Warburton, King, CarolBrass, Getzen, Edwards, Conn if the people around me are all using a Yamaha horn and risk not "blending" well? Is blending not that big of an issue?

My playing needs at the moment would be: pull it out for the occasion wind ensemble piece, brass quintet playing, solo church work.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJtpt31 wrote:
My personal mantra is I am interested in an instrument that will play well (no added intonation quirks), produce a sound based on my aural image, all with some ease of playing. However, part of my "5 year plan" is to find opportunities to play/work with others, so I would then need to consider the tools that I work with to work well when playing with others. Some musicians tend to be "delicate/sensitive" so blending would have to have some level of importance to me when seeking a horn. What is the purpose of having a horn: Blessing, Bach, Stomvi, Schilke, Adams, Scodwell, Burbank, Benge, Warburton, King, CarolBrass, Getzen, Edwards, Conn if the people around me are all using a Yamaha horn and risk not "blending" well? Is blending not that big of an issue?

My playing needs at the moment would be: pull it out for the occasion wind ensemble piece, brass quintet playing, solo church work.


Any of the brands you mention can be played in a section with Yamahas, and the only thing that would matter is intonation.

This all comes down to your personal "aural image" and how it plays with others. If the only sound that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't work in ensembles or quintets, you need to adjust your aural image or your gig expectations.

Please don't try to describe your "aural image" and ask for horn suggestions that will allow you to meld that with the real world. Based on your "5 year plan" your aural image needs to take a backseat to gig reality. Try out as many flugelhorns as you can get your hands on. Bring a tuner and make sure you can play in tune (yes, playing in tune with a group is different than playing in tune with a tuner, but a tuner will tell you if any notes are ridiculously out). Don't spend too much. Pursue your "aural image" when your playing has earned you the opportunity.
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
If the only sound that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn't work in ensembles or quintets, you need to adjust your aural image or your gig expectations.

To a certain degree, yes, however blending comes across as subjective. I won't play in the style of mariachi when performing a Bach chorale, the same way I won't use a "orchestral" style to play mariachi.

nieuwguyski wrote:

Please don't try to describe your "aural image" and ask for horn suggestions that will allow you to meld that with the real world. Based on your "5 year plan" your aural image needs to take a backseat to gig reality. Try out as many flugelhorns as you can get your hands on. Bring a tuner and make sure you can play in tune (yes, playing in tune with a group is different than playing in tune with a tuner, but a tuner will tell you if any notes are ridiculously out). Don't spend too much. Pursue your "aural image" when your playing has earned you the opportunity.


I haven't described my "aural image." I stated that the horn of choice would need to afford me the ability to create what is in my head. Having a concept and recreating that through the horn is important, why else would anyone pick-up the horn?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that custom horns offer an advantage, but ONLY if:

1. You can actually try them, make changes, try those changes, and so on until you get the sound and feel that you want. If you can't do that, you might as well try different 'stock' horns in a large store.
2. You are looking for something that is not considered 'normal'. For example: adams makes some horns in different configurations, where the bell is pointed upwards for example, or with a 4th valve. Or when you are very specific on small details. This kind of trigger, this kind of finger ring there, this kind of laquer there, silver there, gold there etc.
3. The place where you play has no restrictions on the sound and look of the section. Usually, you have to blend in the section, and you all have to look more or less the same. Super mellow tone and pink laquer would probably not be acceptable in a concert band.

So if you can work with the custom builder, and actually try out all the options, if you want something that factory-built horns usually don't have, and if your section has no further restrictions, then yes, it could offer something that others cannot.
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JazzFluegel
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In combo work I play flugel almost exclusively. Over 25 years I have had Selmer (silver), Yamaha (red brass/ 90's 631?), Marcinkiewicz (silver), and now Kanstul 1525 (Cu/scratch lacquer). Sold the Yamaha after getting/comparing the Kanstul. The K is the easiest to perform with, particularly when doing 3 sets. I find the 3rd valve trigger to be superfluous. The build quality is suspect and I complained but never heard back from the factory. I find that copper bell horns are the most reactive to mouthpiece selection; I prefer a smoky flugel sound and use a small mystery mouthpiece that I have; but can get a clear tone from the K with a larger volume mouthpiece. All that said, in my studio recording experience, only the custom Marcinkiewicz Fluegelhorn puts down a true flugel sound without any digital engineering manipulation later on.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first flugel was an old Clark terry model Olds with a copper bell. Great horn. Sold it to make payments on necessities. next was a Getzen 4-valve. Decent horn, if a bit tombone-ish, but good build quality. Next was a copper belled Blessing, which always had problems with the valves and intonation, though it had a nice sound. Traded up to a Cousenon in raw brass. It plays well, but has mechanical issues. Just recently upgraded to a Marcinkiewicz. Mechanically it is superb. It plays very well in tune and has a great sound. Very flexible and reacts extremely well. The best I've ever owned and the second best I ever played (the best was another Marc.) The differences between the horns have pretty much paralleled the price - the more you pay, the better you get, and the more care there was with design and build.
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