Pitch Center and Intonation, are they in the same place

[deleted_user_680e93b]

I have discussed in the past that sometimes i get sharp in pitch when i play and practice alone for long periods of time. I have discovered the solution to this simply is that my ears become adjusted to a sharper pitch when i am not playing with other players or i'm not playing along with music minus one type stuff or a reference pitch and that for whatever reason the sharper pitch sounds "correct" to my ears. there is a lot of talk from the various schools, namely Stamp, that you should go from pitch center to pitch center in each note. By pitch center i am assuming that they mean the most resonant part of the note. But does that mean that the note is perfectly in tune as well because the trumpet is note really in tune through the scale and to me anyway the most resonant part of the note isn't always perfectly in tune.

just some random observations, any thoughts ?

thanks
tom

[Lionel]

[cheiden]

I"ve suffered one notable period where I just heard the pitch very high. No matter how far I pulled my tuning slide I still managed to play REALLY sharp...because that's where I thought the note needed to be. Took a good deal of work to break that habit. I did that work with a teacher who studied with Stamp.

In the Stamp approach, you try and find the center of where each note is most clear, then how to quickly transition from the center of one note to the center of the next with every note ringing like a bell. If you're then not aligned with the tuner just adjust your tuning slide(s). Once you can do that it's a relatively easy step to make the micro-adjustments needed for ensemble playing.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[JayKosta]

Electronic tuners are calibrated to the pitches for 'piano tuning', and 'piano tuning' is designed to (and does) provide a satisfactory sound for an instrument that cannot be adjusted by the player.
Those pitches are a compromise that works 'well enough' for a piano to sound acceptable regardless of the key signature of the music.

To me a glaring example of the compromise is how harsh sounding a Major 3rd (played together) sounds on the piano - with true harmonic tuning a 3rd should sound very nice, but not on a piano.

I'd rate 'playing in tune' with the ensemble above getting better 'sound' for an out-of-tune note!

Part of regular practice should be playing various major key scales and striving to have the various pitch intervals all be consistent with when sung well. And in addition striving for the best sound.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Andy Del]

Hitting the centre of notes, creating a resonant sound andnplaying with ease is one thing. Playing in tune - with good intonatiOn - is something totally different.

The first is about of sound on the horn itself and is internal.

Playing in tune is external. It is different for a band/orchestra and a piano. It is very different again if applying with an organ that has a different tuning temperament. In a recent recital, my old buddy who lives way away commented that he had not played with someone who tempers their pitch to play in tune thirds and 5th...

I think of it as listening... while making a rich resonant sound.

Cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[shofarguy]

I have mostly played with amateur musicians with a wide variety of skill levels. In school, I was also a vocal major and had the opportunity to sing in some highly advanced ensembles who performed in all sorts of venues and music styles, one of which was à cappella. So, I know the challenges you write about.

Answering your question: No, pitch center is one thing, intonation is another.

Finding the center of each pitch on your instrument is important, because it leads you to a proper embouchure, i.e. not too tense or relaxed. This is done by learning and providing a good column of air behind all your notes, then bending each pitch (one at a time) to feel and hear where the horn wants to "center." It will produce a resonant, rich sound and feel like it should play that pitch. String those well-centered pitches together into ascending/descending scale and you establish the horn's natural intonation scale.

Each trumpet design has its own version, but Bb trumpet has an overall characteristic scale that exists because of the physics involved.

Intonation is different. Intonation takes into account the overtone series that defines natural intervals between notes, chords, etc. It also has to take into account various types of instruments that have different acoustics and different natural scales. Different keyed instruments have different overtone series and scales.

An ensemble is a collection of usually different instruments all with individual intonation characteristics. How do we establish what is "correct" intonation? That is why in orchestral music there is a Concert Master. That player is responsible for the intonation of the entire orchestra. At least, that's the theory.
So, each musician is supposed to play in tune with the Concert Master. Good luck with that! At least at the amateur level.

To help with my own sense of intonation, I sought out acoustic drones and would hum along with them in unison, at perfect intervals and other more dissonant intervals to develop a sense of what each one feels like. I often used machines (with proper ear protection!) as those drones and would start with unison or octave humming. I would bend the pitch up and down, listening for those funky beats of dissonance that developed and dissipated when I moved the pitch. I paid attention to the feel of a perfectly in tune note, not just how it felt to produce that pitch, but how it felt against the drone pitch.

When you have some level of mastery over pitch center and combine that with a developed sense of intonation, you begin to understand why some trumpets leave plenty of room to move pitches around while maintaining a resonant sound, while others are designed to have a stronger, less forgiving pitch center. You will be more able to make a good decision about the type of horn you prefer, based on its design characteristics and how they assist you as a musician.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[deleted_user_680e93b]

Thanks all for your thoughts.

I too had a long period where i was playing sharp and moving the slide made almost no difference. In the end it is an ear thing and chasing the tuner needle made no difference. I started playing music minus one type stuff and used drones and my ears re adjusted to better intonation. I think my equipment plays a roll in the sharpness issue though, as i play very small id's, 00 curry's, so i need to stay really relaxed in my chops, and my horn, a conn vintage one seems to vibrate a little more towards the top end of the note.
Years ago in college my bach 37 seem to vibrate more in the bottom part of the note, but i was also using a bach 1 1/2 C then.
It's not a problem anymore, especially when i'm gigging alot and listening to and blending with the other players in the band. Brian, i liked your explanation about finding where your horn wants to center. It makes a lot of sense.

thanks again all,

tom