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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:21 pm Post subject: Amado water key: How to Jimmy Rig |
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Folks: My Amado water key started sticking, and valve oil was not helping. The inside seemed wacked. Of course this happened at 9:30pm and I didn't have time the next day to go to a shop before rehearsal. Desperate times called for desperate measures. I watched a YouTube video and figured out how to take the water key apart. I used a straightened paper clip and wire clippers as my only tools, not the conventional tools referenced in the videos that I would never use again. When I got it apart using the paper clip, I found the spring was broken. Even though it lasted 20 years, it picked a poor time to break! I remembered the childhood days when I took the pens in the church pews apart and played with the springs inside, ruining the pens. I replaced the Amado Water key spring with a pen spring! The spring is the perfect width, and I have dozens of pens sitting around. I looked at the broken spring and estimated 5 curls, wire cutting the pen spring at the fifth curl. Yes it is not refined in one end. The other thing is it is a little noisier, but it will work till I get to the shop. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
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1jazzyalex Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2016 Posts: 569 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Great job! Yeah pen springs can be really good esp. something like a Bic or Pentel, Tombow, Pilot etc. Probably rate for far more compressions than the original spring was. _________________ Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Yep! That's the one I watched. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
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Bstradivarius Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 Posts: 146 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:37 am Post subject: |
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1jazzyalex wrote: | Great job! Yeah pen springs can be really good esp. something like a Bic or Pentel, Tombow, Pilot etc. Probably rate for far more compressions than the original spring was. |
Thanks! I believe the organ donor was a Pentel. _________________ Jon J
Principal trumpet - Symphony Orchestra
Soloist
Brass Quintet
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 383 Location: Tucson
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GizB Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2005 Posts: 198
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1954
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:25 am Post subject: Amado maintenance |
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It always surprises me that players with Amado equipped trumpets can't seem to find a moment periodically for the maintenance of their waterkeys. Understanding the problem here was an broken spring (something that is so rare this was the first one I've heard of since Ray Amado developed the waterkey in 1968) you really do need to keep spare parts on hand for periodic maintenance. Get some circlips, end plates, springs and a piston or two as disassembling them for cleaning usually has a part or two flying into the black hole never to be found. Yes, this is a big drag in design but understand Amado's original design incorporated an end plate that screwed on and off which eliminated the circle and endplate. Too expensive to mass produce so the waterkey used on most horns is what we're talking about here.
When DEG horns were in production Ray Amado developed a snap on plastic cap/endplate for Don Getzen. Monette uses that style on his horns today. When taking those keys apart you just take an Exacto knife and nudge the plastic cap off. I've converted standard keys to use these snap caps by cutting a groove on the key body on my lathe and as Ray's son gave me several thousand of the gold and silver plastic caps after Ray's death, I'd be happy to share these with players when asked.
The Saturn and Pollard keys to my eye are just plain ugly and I don't see any advantage using them.
Players who feel running a brush through the slide is "cleaning" the Amado are not solving the real problem. Crud will get trapped in the piston groove on the inside and complaints about sticking and not being able to get the moisture out can be directly traced to this area. You have to disassemble them for thorough cleaning. In a pinch, blowing compressed air when the piston is depressed through the opening usually clears any crud lodged in place. Obviously oiling them often is a good idea as well.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Does anybody know if it's a problem to replace Amado keys with conventional ones? And is it a specialty job done only by a few or something that can be done by most techs? Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 383 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Amado maintenance |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | ...
The Saturn and Pollard keys to my eye are just plain ugly and I don't see any advantage using them.
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Hi, Tony,
As you listed several disadvantages of the Amado-style key, each one of the Amado's disadvantage is an advantage for the Pollard Water Key (PWK), plus the PWK empties more quickly and completely, also advantages. If I ever were to have a problem with a PWK – even, perhaps, on stage – I could take it apart and reassemble in less than a minute using a dime as the only tool ← pretty big advantage.
And ...
need to keep spare parts on hand
some circlips, end plates, springs and a piston or two
disassembling them for cleaning usually has a part or two flying into the black hole never to be found
Yes, this is a big drag in design
just take an Exacto knife and nudge the plastic cap off [of upgraded design]
I've converted standard keys to use these snap caps [upgrade]by cutting a groove on the key body on my lathe
Here’s what Jerry writes on his site …
The Amado Water Key is a piston sliding in a cylinder, so it has to be loose enough for the piston to slide, yet tight enough to not leak; this can lead to an inadequate seal. With the Amado, the piston, as it slides to release water, remains in contact with the cylinder wall. If it is dry or if there is debris, the piston can and will stick open, usually at a very inconvenient time! Often the valve won't work for this very reason when the horn is taken out of the case. The piston must manually be forced back, hopefully freeing the valve, at least temporarily.
The Pollard Water Key seals against the hole in the tubing [of the instrument] where water comes out of the horn and instantly pulls away from the wall.
Another problem with the Amado is that it uses a metal snap ring that is very hard to remove and can rust or break over time.
ALL internal components of the Pollard Water Key are stainless steel. The end plug can be removed with a coin, no special tool needed!
If a builder wants an aesthetic design change (from PWK site) ...
If you make a few horns a year:
You will find the PWK to be easy to install, and add great value to your fine custom-built horn. The functionality, the aesthetic, the long- term and trouble-free operation will add to the perceived and real value of your brasswind instrument. Whether you build to the high end or the mid range price, the PWK will add a touch of class to your beautiful horns. We can redesign the aesthetics, the size, the orientation of the PWK, with the same NO STICK functionality for you, with your input, or by proposing a design that would look "right" on your horn.
If you are a mass-producer of fine brass instruments:
We can redesign the aesthetics, the size, the orientation of the PWK, with the same NO STICK functionality for you, with your input, or by proposing a design that would look "right" on your horn. We are open to licensing agreements, or outright purchase of the rights to the patent, which will be issued this year. Your company may want to manufacture your own PWK, and there are legal mechanisms to accomplish this.
I’m pretty sure that my horn plays better with PWKs and I really like the way that they look, although they don’t stand out or draw attention to themselves.
Take care,
-Denny |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Seeing how I never carry change, especially on stage, I would not have a dime to use as a screwdriver. |
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 383 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:07 am Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Seeing how I never carry change, especially on stage, I would not have a dime to use as a screwdriver. |
Amado wins!!!
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1541 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:28 am Post subject: |
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This thread is another great example of a conversation on TH collecting information that can benefit all of us. Thank you. The Pollard keys look interesting.
I prefer to Amado key to the standard lever key, but it looks like the Pollard is an improvement on the design, or perhaps an improvement and return to some of the original concepts of the Amado.
I have seen another kind of key -- like a continuous drip key with a core that percolates out the liquid but does not release air. I think they are called Joy keys or something like that. Has anyone tried them? _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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