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Amado water key: How to Jimmy Rig



 
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Bstradivarius
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:21 pm    Post subject: Amado water key: How to Jimmy Rig Reply with quote

Folks: My Amado water key started sticking, and valve oil was not helping. The inside seemed wacked. Of course this happened at 9:30pm and I didn't have time the next day to go to a shop before rehearsal. Desperate times called for desperate measures. I watched a YouTube video and figured out how to take the water key apart. I used a straightened paper clip and wire clippers as my only tools, not the conventional tools referenced in the videos that I would never use again. When I got it apart using the paper clip, I found the spring was broken. Even though it lasted 20 years, it picked a poor time to break! I remembered the childhood days when I took the pens in the church pews apart and played with the springs inside, ruining the pens. I replaced the Amado Water key spring with a pen spring! The spring is the perfect width, and I have dozens of pens sitting around. I looked at the broken spring and estimated 5 curls, wire cutting the pen spring at the fifth curl. Yes it is not refined in one end. The other thing is it is a little noisier, but it will work till I get to the shop.
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1jazzyalex
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great job! Yeah pen springs can be really good esp. something like a Bic or Pentel, Tombow, Pilot etc. Probably rate for far more compressions than the original spring was.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is Flip's video for reference: https://flipoakes.com/flip-on-maintaining-the-amado-waterkey/
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Bstradivarius
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Here is Flip's video for reference: https://flipoakes.com/flip-on-maintaining-the-amado-waterkey/


Yep! That's the one I watched.
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Bstradivarius
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1jazzyalex wrote:
Great job! Yeah pen springs can be really good esp. something like a Bic or Pentel, Tombow, Pilot etc. Probably rate for far more compressions than the original spring was.


Thanks! I believe the organ donor was a Pentel.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And ... consider replacing the Amados with Pollards

https://www.pollardwaterkey.com/

-Denny
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GizB
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
And ... consider replacing the Amados with Pollards

https://www.pollardwaterkey.com/

-Denny


Or you might consider replacing them with Saturn water keys (on sale at Harrelson's):

https://www.whyharrelson.com/store/p246/Saturn_Water_Key.html

I've had them on 3 trumpets for years with no problems at all.

More background on Saturns here:

http://www.deniswedgwood.com/saturn.htm
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Amado maintenance Reply with quote

It always surprises me that players with Amado equipped trumpets can't seem to find a moment periodically for the maintenance of their waterkeys. Understanding the problem here was an broken spring (something that is so rare this was the first one I've heard of since Ray Amado developed the waterkey in 1968) you really do need to keep spare parts on hand for periodic maintenance. Get some circlips, end plates, springs and a piston or two as disassembling them for cleaning usually has a part or two flying into the black hole never to be found. Yes, this is a big drag in design but understand Amado's original design incorporated an end plate that screwed on and off which eliminated the circle and endplate. Too expensive to mass produce so the waterkey used on most horns is what we're talking about here.

When DEG horns were in production Ray Amado developed a snap on plastic cap/endplate for Don Getzen. Monette uses that style on his horns today. When taking those keys apart you just take an Exacto knife and nudge the plastic cap off. I've converted standard keys to use these snap caps by cutting a groove on the key body on my lathe and as Ray's son gave me several thousand of the gold and silver plastic caps after Ray's death, I'd be happy to share these with players when asked.

The Saturn and Pollard keys to my eye are just plain ugly and I don't see any advantage using them.

Players who feel running a brush through the slide is "cleaning" the Amado are not solving the real problem. Crud will get trapped in the piston groove on the inside and complaints about sticking and not being able to get the moisture out can be directly traced to this area. You have to disassemble them for thorough cleaning. In a pinch, blowing compressed air when the piston is depressed through the opening usually clears any crud lodged in place. Obviously oiling them often is a good idea as well.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anybody know if it's a problem to replace Amado keys with conventional ones? And is it a specialty job done only by a few or something that can be done by most techs? Thanks.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Amado maintenance Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
...

The Saturn and Pollard keys to my eye are just plain ugly and I don't see any advantage using them.

...



Hi, Tony,

As you listed several disadvantages of the Amado-style key, each one of the Amado's disadvantage is an advantage for the Pollard Water Key (PWK), plus the PWK empties more quickly and completely, also advantages. If I ever were to have a problem with a PWK – even, perhaps, on stage – I could take it apart and reassemble in less than a minute using a dime as the only tool ← pretty big advantage.

And ...

need to keep spare parts on hand

some circlips, end plates, springs and a piston or two

disassembling them for cleaning usually has a part or two flying into the black hole never to be found

Yes, this is a big drag in design

just take an Exacto knife and nudge the plastic cap off [of upgraded design]

I've converted standard keys to use these snap caps [upgrade]by cutting a groove on the key body on my lathe



Here’s what Jerry writes on his site …

The Amado Water Key is a piston sliding in a cylinder, so it has to be loose enough for the piston to slide, yet tight enough to not leak; this can lead to an inadequate seal.  With the Amado, the piston, as it slides to release water, remains in contact with the cylinder wall.  If it is dry or if there is debris, the piston can and will stick open, usually at a very inconvenient time!  Often the valve won't work for this very reason when the horn is taken out of the case.  The piston must manually be forced back, hopefully freeing the valve, at least temporarily.

The Pollard Water Key seals against the hole in the tubing [of the instrument] where water comes out of the horn and instantly pulls away from the wall.

 Another problem with the Amado is that it uses a metal snap ring that is very hard to remove and can rust or break over time.

ALL internal components of the Pollard Water Key are stainless steel.  The end plug can be removed with a coin, no special tool needed!

If a builder wants an aesthetic design change (from PWK site) ...

If you make a few horns a year:
 
You will find the PWK to be easy to install, and add great value to your fine custom-built horn. The functionality, the aesthetic, the long- term and trouble-free operation will add to the perceived and real value of your brasswind instrument. Whether you build to the high end or the mid range price, the PWK will add a touch of class to your beautiful horns. We can redesign the aesthetics, the size, the orientation of the PWK, with the same NO STICK functionality for you, with your input, or by proposing a design that would look "right" on your horn.
 
If you are a mass-producer of fine brass instruments:

We can redesign the aesthetics, the size, the orientation of the PWK, with the same NO STICK functionality for you, with your input, or by proposing a design that would look "right" on your horn. We are open to licensing agreements, or outright purchase of the rights to the patent, which will be issued this year. Your company may want to manufacture your own PWK, and there are legal mechanisms to accomplish this.




I’m pretty sure that my horn plays better with PWKs and I really like the way that they look, although they don’t stand out or draw attention to themselves.

Take care,

-Denny
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing how I never carry change, especially on stage, I would not have a dime to use as a screwdriver.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Seeing how I never carry change, especially on stage, I would not have a dime to use as a screwdriver.


Amado wins!!!

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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is another great example of a conversation on TH collecting information that can benefit all of us. Thank you. The Pollard keys look interesting.
I prefer to Amado key to the standard lever key, but it looks like the Pollard is an improvement on the design, or perhaps an improvement and return to some of the original concepts of the Amado.
I have seen another kind of key -- like a continuous drip key with a core that percolates out the liquid but does not release air. I think they are called Joy keys or something like that. Has anyone tried them?
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