Small Morse taper flugelhorn mouthpieces?

[Dutch Guy]

Some background:
I'm part of a Dutch 'Fanfare' band; essentially an orchestra consisting of only brass instruments and a few saxophones. Flugelhorns play the parts that violins would play in a symphonic orchestra, cornets would play in a brass band and clarinets would play in a wind orchestra.

We play on 'Van Laar' flugelhorns, with only a few exceptions. When I got the flugelhorn I complained about the mouthpiece. I thought that it didn't fit right, and was a bit wobbly. Some additional pressure fixed it in place, but it still didn't feel right. I play on a Denis Wick 3FL.
Not long ago, someone suggested to try a Denis Wick 3F, and indeed these have a different taper, that goes into the moupiece tube much further. At that time I started looking into flugelhorn mouthpieces, and for those of you that have done the same: it's confusing!

Although not officially described anywhere, it seems that van Laar, like Bach, use what is called a smal morse taper. The 'normal' flugelhorn mouthpieces however are large morse tapers, that fit Yamaha, among others. No one in our band knew this. They just put in a large taper mouthpiece and assumed that's what it was supposed to look and feel like.

So, Denis Wick makes only the 2, 3 and 4F with small taper, which have very deep cups. Denis wick makes others such as the 4BFL with a shallower cup specifically for 'european bands', sadly only with a large taper.

My search for different brands of small taper mouthpieces hasn't helped much. Everyone calls them differently, if they make them at all.

What I really want to know: what brands of mouthpieces make small taper mouthpieces? If they make both, how do I recognize them? And lastly, any suggestions for approximately an 3BLF 4BLF equivalent from another brand?

Another related question: Does anyone have experience with swapping the mouthpiece tube for another that accepts different mouthpieces? Is that even possible?

Thanks!

[zaferis]

Yes, a common issue that is overlooked, and can make a significant difference in how the Flugel performs.

I've found that most mouthpiece makeres have all three Flugel tapers available, the chore is finding the source/vedor/store that also knows the difference.

My favorite is the Curry line: 3FL, 3FLM, 3FLD.

https://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/specshub/flugeltapers.html

I have a leadpipe that Charles Melk (Charlies's Brass Works) made for my Bach Flugel that is a large morse taper (Bach's standard is a small morse taper).. I bought it seeking improvement on some pitch tendancies not for a different reciever.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[shofarguy]

From FlipOakes.com

Shanks available in 3 different tapers (please specify your brand, and model flugelhorn):

French or Straight Taper: Flip Oakes, Old Couesnon, Kanstul CCF 925.

Small Morse Taper: Newest Kanstul 1525, 725, 1025, Callet, new Couesnon, Bach, Courtois, Olds, LeBlanc (including Sandoval), Schagerl Killer Queen, Stomvi, and some other European brands.

Large Morse Taper: Older Kanstul 1525, Callet, Calicchio, Yamaha, King, Conn Vintage One, Getzen, Adams, Benge, Amati, Eclipse, Weirl, Jupiter, Blessing, Zeus made by Blessing, Holton, Carol Brass and Klaus Martens.

https://flipoakes.com/accessories/mouthpieces/
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Dutch Guy]

Thanks guys.

@shofarguy: That's a list of instrument brands, not mouthpiece brands. I already got the instrument . I'm looking for mouthpiece brands so that I can prepare for a visit to a shop.

@zaferis: exactly this. When I told my band mates we were all using the wrong mouthpieces on our insruments they thought I was being crazy. I showed them using a 2F and 2FL from Denis Wick and now they realize that there really are different tapers. Sadly, many shops don't know this either, unless they have a flugelhorn expert, which most don't. And I'm not kidding. The telephone lady at van Laar also didn't know

But back to my question: which mouthpiece brands have different tapers available? And if they do, how are those called? Like with Denis Wick, they are the 'F' models.

If I know this, I can prepare to visit some shops and know what I'm looking for.
Some brands that are being sold here are Denis Wick, Bach, Yamaha, GR, JK, Alliance. Sadly I know nothing about any of them, and the local online store does not sort on taper size, or even mentions it for that matter.

[bunny]

Bach mouthpieces are the small or Bach taper. And they make some shallower ones I think.

[yourbrass]

[zaferis]

Curry Precision Mouthpieces: Copied from the Curry web page. Shop mouthpiece express.com, Osmun Music, WWBW, Dillon Music, etc...

Note: Curry flugel mouthpieces are correspondingly marked -Y, -B, and -F to indicate the shank size after the cup and rim marking. i.e., 3FL.-Y would indicate a 3FL. cup and rim with the Yamaha shank, 3FL.-B a Bach shank, and 3FL.-F a French shank.

Flugelhorn Mouthpiece Taper Information

There are three commonly used flugelhorn tapers, with a fourth (German), being less common.

Standard, or Yamaha taper: fits Yamaha, Getzen, Callet, Benge/King/Conn, Weril, Holton and older Kanstul 1525 fluglehorns and other “American” flugelhorns except Bach.
Bach taper: Fits Bach, Olds, Courtois, LeBlanc (including Sandoval), B&S, and some other European brands, and Kanstul models 725, 1025, & 1525.
Couesnon, or French Taper: Fits Couesnon, some other European brands, Flip Oakes "Wild Thing," Kanstul CCF 925, and original F. Besson flugelhorns. Couesnon taper is sometimes referred to as French taper. Not really a taper at all, but a 10mm (.393" diameter) straight shank with a locking taper about an inch up the shank to securely lock the mouthpiece in the non-tapered French leadpipe receiver. This is not to be confused with the:
German 10mm taper: This is a tapered shank starting at 10mm (.393"). This has been used with some Miraphone flugels and is the "large shank" option with the CarolBrass flugels. Stock mouthpieces shipped with these horns resemble a slightly shorter trumpet mouthpiece that will not fit any other flugel horn. Available by special order only, Curry flugelhorn mouthpieces with the German shank will be the standard Curry Flugelhorn length of 2.625".

Note: Standard taper will fit in most flugels requiring a Bach taper. They just stick out of the tuning bit about 1/3" (8mm) further. Mouthpiece engagement of at least 5/8" (.625") or more into the tuning bit is usually sufficient.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[Dutch Guy]

@bunny: I think that's the only one I know for sure. Sadly I'm not a big fan of Bach mouthpieces. My guess is that Yamaha only makes large Morse taper mouthpieces?

@yourbrass: I will not be contacting any makers. I don't even know exactly what I want. I need to try them locally. Custom order is a no-go. As for the leadpipe, I just hope that they sell them with large taper for a reasonable price. Then I could just use any mouthpiece with any taper. I will go to the van Laar factory and see.

@zaferis: Ok, So any Curry -B mouthpiece fits my leadpipe. Good to know. I'll see if I can find some locally. The note at the bottom indicates that standard taper fits into bach taper. That's what we all have been doing in our band. For some it worked better than for others. Mine is wobbly. The previous owner of my neighbours flugelhorn apparently drilled the pipe to make it wider, so that it fits large shanks. The others don't experience it as a problem.

[Dutch Guy]

Final update: I went to the van Laar shop, and Hub (the owner of van Laar) took one look, and confirmed that I wasn't using the right mouthpiece. He switched my old leadpipe for another one that was built for 'large taper' mouthpieces. And the best part, he did it all for free, as part of the service that comes with the instrument! What an awesome guy!

I had some time to try out all the current models for sale, and I will be a poor guy soon.

[theslawdawg]

[Dutch Guy]