View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:19 am Post subject: Restoring badly worn silver plate |
|
|
Quick question for those of you who are into custom finishes.
I have a 1925 Couesnon flugel that plays well but the silver plate is not the prettiest - I'd say it's about 60%-75%.
I've considered a few ways of dealing with this, and I thought I'd tap into the collective wisdom of TH.
1. Simply polish up the brass where it's showing through, so it's less obvious, but of course, brass is yellow and silver is... well, silver!
2. Brush plate the brass with silver, but I'm just worried that it'll end up looking like a patchwork.
3. Take it to a plater and have them strip the plate and leave it in raw brass.
4. Get it replated or touched up professionally in silver - I'm just not sure I'd get my money back from that.
Then I thought of a fifth possibility, but I don't know if it would work. Is there a way to age silver and brass that ends up with them looking similar? The main problem I can foresee is that, of course, silver patina is black and brass patina is brown. But I just wondered if there's a finish that would end up looking the same without having to strip the plating that's still on there.
Have I missed any other options?
Thanks in advance!
Rob _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hartleymartin Regular Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 Posts: 26 Location: Sydney, Australia
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Really depends on how you want to use the instrument. Is it a display piece? Historical curiosity? Daily Driver?
Some may say that patchy silver is part of the patina and the history of the instrument. _________________ Martin Hartley |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2411 Location: Maryland
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
As already mentioned, in part, it depends on your goals.
I was in the same situation a couple years back, with my Bach Strad C trumpet from 1980. The silver plate was flaking off in places. For me, I wanted to keep the horn in good condition (both functionally and esthetically). The horn also needed some other work. I looked into several options. But the best solution for me was to re-plate the horn (along with the other repairs).
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Last edited by TrumpetMD on Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:45 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Martin.
That's a really good point. It's not my daily driver by any means.
I own four(!) flugels, and I need to make room (and get funds to feed my brass trading habit lol).
So, the intention is more about maximizing resale value, and I know people buy with their eyes. Queenies seem to go for anything from a couple of hundred dollars to a couple of thousand, and my aim is to get it closer to the top level.
It's not a Monopole, so I guess it's not going to get top dollar, but it was a pro-level horn: the BN series was just below the Monopole and Opera series; they were made for the army and Couesnon considered it "Fabrication Superieure" (higher production values) along with the two higher ranges. _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's possible to do a decent job brush plating the brass patches. It will look quite good if you do things right. The brush plating will last a long time on areas that you dont handle very often. Its a thin layer of silver, much thinner than "real" plating, but if you dont rub it or polish it a lot it lasts pretty good. Easy to touch up if needed.
Brush plating silver kit from Caswell... about 45 bucks, will do at least 3 or 4 horns like yours
1) you need to get the brass areas and the silver areas next to them to have the same kind of smoothness. Dont buff the bass areas smoother than the silver. That will show as patchyness.
2) Clean it super good. The best thing to use is first dawn detergent, and then soft scrub with very light pressure on a microfiber cloth for a long time, like 2 minutes, until your "water bead test" is good even with a spray bottle. If the spray bead up even a little bit your silver wont bond. cleaning it takes way longer than you think to get a perfect water bead test.
3) Use more fabric bandage on the wand than you think. It should wrapped around at least 5 layers. wraptight and tie with a band or o-ring. Let the silver solution soak into the bandage for a while before you start. Like a whole minute. Actually it best to pour a smal amount into something like the bottle cap, and let the wand soak in that little bit of solution in the bottle cap. Never dump any leftover solution into the bottle. It makes all the silver sink to the bottom in crystals.
4) swab the piece for way longer than you think. To keep from getting bored count your stokes over a particular small area. 100 strokes back and forth. Dont worry if the piece turns black.dont let the wand stop in one place.
5) polish off the black with silver polish and very light pressure. It will look great but you can remove it if you push and rub.
6) this whole process will take about an hour. I have done whole bells, whole leadpipes, horns with 50 percent silver missing etc. If you clean it good enough it works good. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
|
Back to top |
|
|
robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks TrumpetMD.
and thanks Lisphurt. I’ve looked at the Castell kits, so it’s good to know they do a decent job over fairly large areas. I was worried they’d only be good for spot plating - all the videos seem to be people using them to plate nickels! _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pinstriper Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2013 Posts: 340 Location: Portlandia, OR
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Do consider how you are going to describe this instrument when selling it.
The brush/swab on silver plating is probably not something that makes the horn more attractive than leaving it as is.
Will you disclose it ? Will you instead describe the finish as "90%" and not mention that significant areas have been home plated ?
As a buyer, I'd shy away from a horn with significant home replating if I knew about it. If I didn't, and found out later, I'd be very unhappy. _________________ ~'77 DEG Dynasty II Soprano Bugle in G
'13 Chinese POS "Hawk" branded Flugel
'59 Olds Ambassador Cornet
'51 Olds Super
'69 Olds Studio
'40 Olds Special Cornet, Military Issued |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
pinstriper wrote: | Do consider how you are going to describe this instrument when selling it.
The brush/swab on silver plating is probably not something that makes the horn more attractive than leaving it as is.
Will you disclose it ? Will you instead describe the finish as "90%" and not mention that significant areas have been home plated ?
As a buyer, I'd shy away from a horn with significant home replating if I knew about it. If I didn't, and found out later, I'd be very unhappy. |
+1 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Whatever the final treatment was, I’d disclose it. I’ve bought too many horns that weren’t as described myself - I’m figuring out how to deal with one right now in fact. Fortunately, I didn’t pay much, so I may just write it off to experience and use it for spares :-/
At the moment, my inclination is towards stripping it altogether and possibly brushing and ageing. The Queenie is a great jazz horn, and a raw brushed brass look would suit it well. I’d just be worried what impact it would have on the sound. _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
|
Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've been looking into the topic of silver plating - the pretty consistent story I find is that these brush-on methods leave a very thin, not very durable deposit of silver compared to a full pro silver plating, which are themselves very thin compared to anything you'd paint. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hartleymartin Regular Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 Posts: 26 Location: Sydney, Australia
|
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
robcs wrote: | Hi Martin.
That's a really good point. It's not my daily driver by any means.
I own four(!) flugels, and I need to make room (and get funds to feed my brass trading habit lol).
So, the intention is more about maximizing resale value, and I know people buy with their eyes. Queenies seem to go for anything from a couple of hundred dollars to a couple of thousand, and my aim is to get it closer to the top level.
It's not a Monopole, so I guess it's not going to get top dollar, but it was a pro-level horn: the BN series was just below the Monopole and Opera series; they were made for the army and Couesnon considered it "Fabrication Superieure" (higher production values) along with the two higher ranges. |
If it is a vintage instrument, I would want it to either be left original or professionally restored/re-plated by a reputable firm. I don't want to be un-doing any DIY work when I am having an instrument restored.
I suppose it does partly depend on how the plating has deteriorated. Is it worn off in patches that you would expect from use? The type of plating damage that comes from neglect de-values an instrument. Plating wear that comes from normal use is patina.
In any case, I doubt that is much DIY plating repair that you could do that would justify the expense. The only DIY repairs worth doing would be to free up any stuck bits and give it a good clean and lubrication job. _________________ Martin Hartley |
|
Back to top |
|
|
delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
|
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Restoring badly worn silver plate |
|
|
robcs wrote: |
Have I missed any other options?
Rob |
Do nothing. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
|
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A 94-year-old flugelhorn will probably have some dezincification. (red rot)
Ares with weak copper spots will not plate smoothly - they will spot and possibly not take plate at all. Unless you're really sure of the metal's condition, don't waste money on a professional refinish/replating. It's generally best to leave really old instruments as they are.
My 2p. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Johank Regular Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 Posts: 43 Location: Kil, Sweden
|
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry if I sound harsh here. My point of view, equal parts ugly truth and tongue in cheek.
Is it a so good playing horn that the esthetics doesn’t matter? Then do nothing, everything You do could alter the playing of the horn. Sell it as it is.
If it isn’t that good playing horn, for resale value it needs a full replate but the increase in selling price never equals the plating cost. Sell it as it is.
So I say either go with Delanos suggestion or your first option.
/Johan _________________ Bach ml 37 with J. Landress leadpipe
Yamaha chicago C gen 1
Yamaha 631G flugel
Yamaha 6335 cornet
Scherzer piccolo
Swedish Eb and Bb cornets Ahlberg & Ohlsson |
|
Back to top |
|
|
robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
|
Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
@Johank - Maybe we brits have a higher tolerance for snark, or maybe I've just been spending too much time on TH lately but your advice didn't come across as harsh, just sensible.
To yourbrass's point, I hadn't considered the impact of red rot on plating. It makes sense, since the first sign we normally notice of red rot is what it does to the plating, but I hadn't connected the dots in the other direction
It definitely needs something done to it. Picking up on what Martin said, it's an odd patttern. There's the usual deplating around the valve assembly, and pitting on the bell. But at some point the whole leadpipe has lost its plating. If there were any signs of soldering, I'd have thought it had been replaced. But I don't see that.
So based on what a lot of people have said, I think it's going to get a damn good polishing and an ultrasonic bath (but probably not in that order). The valves are already aligned, and unfortunately, it came to me with one odd valve button so it's already had a set of 3 new ones.
One quick follow up question, for those of you who like your vintage horns. I still have the two original buttons. Should I dump them because it's an incomplete set, or sell them with the horn in case the buyer wants to track down an original spare? _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
|
Back to top |
|
|
yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
|
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
robcs wrote: |
To yourbrass's point, I hadn't considered the impact of red rot on plating. It makes sense, since the first sign we normally notice of red rot is what it does to the plating, but I hadn't connected the dots in the other direction :)
But at some point the whole leadpipe has lost its plating.
So based on what a lot of people have said, I think it's going to get a damn good polishing and an ultrasonic bath (but probably not in that order). |
Polishing, yes. Ultrasonic cleaning? Risky on an old instrument for the same reason - it can blow through rotten spots, and then you have a new problem.
I recommend neither acid, nor ultrasonic treatment on old and fragile instruments.
My2p. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
|
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
@yourbrass See, this is why I like to ask questions on here _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hartleymartin Regular Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 Posts: 26 Location: Sydney, Australia
|
Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
robcs wrote: |
So based on what a lot of people have said, I think it's going to get a damn good polishing and an ultrasonic bath (but probably not in that order). The valves are already aligned, and unfortunately, it came to me with one odd valve button so it's already had a set of 3 new ones.
One quick follow up question, for those of you who like your vintage horns. I still have the two original buttons. Should I dump them because it's an incomplete set, or sell them with the horn in case the buyer wants to track down an original spare? |
Sell the horn with the original buttons included, even if you only put them in a small zip-lock bag. A collector will want to keep as much of the original as possible. Who knows? They might come across an original spare or obtain one from a junked horn. _________________ Martin Hartley |
|
Back to top |
|
|
robcs Regular Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2019 Posts: 50 Location: Toronto, ON
|
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
@Martin. There's just one minor problem As I was about to start writing a listing, I had a sudden pang. I can't bring myself to sell the thing. Queenie may not be the prettiest horn in my collection, but she plays well, and I doubt I'll get another classic Couesnon for what I paid for it.
Plus I ended up snagging a new Eb/D trumpet on Ebay that no-one else was bidding on. I think I've got this whole "buying and trading horns" business all wrong. Or rather, only half right!
"My name is Rob and I'm a brass instrument addict. It's been 2 days since I bought my last instrument." _________________ Play with the QORC and GGHG bands
Tpt: Bach 180S37, Besson K Int’l, Sprengler SARV, Radial C, Schiller Eb/D, ACB Picc
Crnt: ACB LB, Reynolds CR301B
Flgh: Jupiter 846RL
WX5 just because |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hartleymartin Regular Member
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 Posts: 26 Location: Sydney, Australia
|
Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
robcs wrote: | @Martin. There's just one minor problem As I was about to start writing a listing, I had a sudden pang. I can't bring myself to sell the thing. Queenie may not be the prettiest horn in my collection, but she plays well, and I doubt I'll get another classic Couesnon for what I paid for it.
Plus I ended up snagging a new Eb/D trumpet on Ebay that no-one else was bidding on. I think I've got this whole "buying and trading horns" business all wrong. Or rather, only half right!
"My name is Rob and I'm a brass instrument addict. It's been 2 days since I bought my last instrument." |
It is very hard to part with an instrument once you've bonded with it! I won't sell my vintage Boosey & Co Cornet. Nor am I likely to part with the family piano, despite the fact I play it very little these days (my sister and I both learned to play on it as children over 20 years ago).
I have a terrible habit of hobbies which involve a lot of equipment acquisition. Vintage Bicycles, Model Railways, Music (organ, piano, flutes, brass). I'm in a state of dread, knowing that I now subconsciously want to acquire a vintage trombone or baritone/euphonium so I can do some multi-track recordings... _________________ Martin Hartley |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|