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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
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Location: Houston, TX.
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 Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| halfgreek12 wrote: | | Why not a 6a4a? It's time tested and used by many gr8 lead players. |
Pretty sure a 6a4a is MUCH shallower and smaller in diameter than the 13a4a. Not saying it would not work, but it’s quite different.
Brad
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| halfgreek12 wrote: | | Why not a 6a4a? It's time tested and used by many gr8 lead players. |
Once upon a time I upsized to a Schilke 6A4a. Prior to that, I was playing on a 70's vintage JetTone MFII, the notorious cupless piece. For the record, I was NOT a gr8 lead player and probably never should have used either.
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jvf1095
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Joined: 18 Jan 2019
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| FYI...I am trying out a Schilke 6A4A. I have thin lips, so at first I was playing it well. Even increased my range a note, & made others easier to play. BUT, after 20 minutes or so of practicing and playing (resting in between), I started to bottom out a bit. However, the original question here was what the difference between a 10A4A & a 13A4A. Both have a diameter of 16.43 according to Schilke specs, & on a mouthpiece comparator, they look identical. With that, has anyone on this forum found out the difference? |
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chase1973
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Joined: 19 Nov 2018
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Location: Valdosta
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | FYI...I am trying out a Schilke 6A4A. I have thin lips, so at first I was playing it well. Even increased my range a note, & made others easier to play. BUT, after 20 minutes or so of practicing and playing (resting in between), I started to bottom out a bit. However, the original question here was what the difference between a 10A4A & a 13A4A. Both have a diameter of 16.43 according to Schilke specs, & on a mouthpiece comparator, they look identical. With that, has anyone on this forum found out the difference? |
If you like the stock 6A4a , you should try the custom Chase 6A4a now available-it's what the 6A4a is SUPPOSED to be |
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Ronnman
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Joined: 09 Aug 2019
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Location: SE Louisiana
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2023 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | FYI...I am trying out a Schilke 6A4A. I have thin lips, so at first I was playing it well. Even increased my range a note, & made others easier to play. BUT, after 20 minutes or so of practicing and playing (resting in between), I started to bottom out a bit. However, the original question here was what the difference between a 10A4A & a 13A4A. Both have a diameter of 16.43 according to Schilke specs, & on a mouthpiece comparator, they look identical. With that, has anyone on this forum found out the difference? |
jvf1095 - I experienced bottoming out as well on the Schilke 6A4a after warming up. I bought a reissue Jettone BC mouthpiece and found that I do not bottom out, although the two pieces are similar. Obviously little different rims shape and alpha angle make a difference. I also play on a Schilke 13A4a, but never tries a 10A4a.
Ron
You can see some minor differences in the mouthpiece contours here: https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/index.html?mpc1id=VA034701&mpc2id=VB010900
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting comparison. Might be just enough room in the Jettone not to bottom out. |
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jvf1095
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chase1973
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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The issue with the stock A4a pieces is that the undercut is set too high, directly under the rim bite. Laskey, Reeves, Warburton & others fixed this issue by having the undercut go further down the walls of the inner rim, this makes bottoming out more difficult and improves long term endurance without working too hard.
The original Schilke-Chase design had a steeper undercut, however, when it came production time, the cutter tool didn't add as much undercut due to the way it was set up on the lathe. Also, the "a" backbores from the early '70's were not as tight as they are nowadays, I also have one of the very first "a" backbores from a custom Chase piece from 1972 and it's not beveled out like all stock "a" backbores are. |
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Ronnman
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Jvf1095 - No, that is not what I bought. I purchased a “Jettone BC”. Which is a reissue mouthpiece, supposedly a copy of the original Jettone “Bill Chase” model. I believe this mouthpiece has a little more undercut than the 6A4a which stops the bottoming out for me. I bought one here off the TH and another off eBay.
Here’s a link to one on eBay from Musician’s Friend: https://www.ebay.com/itm/133731228735?
Ron
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Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| THANKS! |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Just ordered the JT BC. Also ordered the Schilke 10A4A. The BC should be here by 12/16. The 10A4A is on back order. Both look fairly similar on the comparator. Looking forward to trying both. |
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Ronnman
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Keep us updated after you’ve had some time playing on them.
Ron
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Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014 |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| I will. |
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plankowner110
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| OldHorn wrote: | I can't answer your specific question, but it brought back some memories. I grew up in the Chicago area. My buddy and I wanted to get a different mouthpiece. It was the mid 70's, so we got on the "EL" and went to the Schilke factory on Wabash Ave.
We told the receptionist we wanted to try some mouthpieces, she put us in a room and told us someone would be in to help us. An older man with white hair came in, asked us what we wanted. We wanted a mouthpiece to help us play high notes. He got a smile on his face and opened up a case filled with mouthpieces. He handed us each a mouthpiece, one at a time, explaining what was different about each piece. When I tried the 13a4a, it was great. He said that's the right match for me. I agreed, it felt like home.
We finished up and thanked him for his help. I asked him what his name was. He replied, "Renold Schilke".
A man like that taking time out to help a couple goofy high school kids. He was a class act. |
What a great story! I had the pleasure of meeting Renold Schilke over 40 years ago and he was a very nice gentleman.
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https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763 |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Nice! |
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chase1973
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Joined: 19 Nov 2018
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Location: Valdosta
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jvf1095 - No, that is not what I bought. I purchased a “Jettone BC”. Which is a reissue mouthpiece, supposedly a copy of the original Jettone “Bill Chase” model. I believe this mouthpiece has a little more undercut than the 6A4a which stops the bottoming out for me. I bought one here off the TH and another off eBay.
The original Schilke-Chase models were a direct copy Mr. Schilke made from the Jet-Tone. The closest thing to the REAL Chase Jet-Tone is the Legends JT BC which is copied using the original Ray Amado Templates Tony Scodwell got. This piece is a killer! |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you. How different are both mouthpieces? |
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jvf1095
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Joined: 18 Jan 2019
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok, an update on my little mouthpiece safari. The 6A4A & the Jet Tone Re-issue are too shallow for me. Tried them quite a bit. What I am left with is a Schilke 10A4A I'm trying, & a Yamaha 13A4A I'm trying as well. (I already own a Schilke 13A4A). From what I've read on this forum, a Schilke 13 & a Yamaha 13 are not the same; in that the Yamaha runs smaller. Just to characterize, the Yamaha 13A4A has a cup diameter of 16.20. The Schilke 10A4A is at 16.43, & my Schilke 13A4A is 16.76. As far as cup depth, I was told by a Schilke rep that the 10 & the 13 have the same cup depth. I improvised checking the cup depth & throat of the 10, 13 & the Yamaha. I checked the cup depth with an ear bud, one vs the other. The ear bud went deeper on the Yamaha by a slight immeasurable fraction, than on the 10 & 13. All being "A" throats, I discovered that a longer portion of the throat of the 10 is narrower than the 13. (Schilke rep didn't tell me that). The throat of the Yamaha seemed to match the throat of the 13. (Checked this with a 1/8" wide, 5" long rod inserted in the throat of each to see where the rod didn't go any further). I realize this was a crude way to compare these, but I was able to distinguish the 3. BUT, aside from all this, What do those who have actually played a Schilke 13, 10 and the Yamaha 13A4A think about these mouthpieces? For myself, the Schilke 10 & Yamaha 13A4A are about a draw as far as what I can play at this point, & range, etc. |
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Ronnman
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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jvf1095 - My Schilke 13A4a cup diameter is .651” while my Yamaha 13A4a is .659”. The Schilke has a .143” throat and the Yamaha is .146”. The cup measurements are approximate since they are measured with digital caliper by sight. I would say the measurements are within .002”. The throats are gauged using ball gauges and then the gauge measured by digital caliper. I beleive these are accurate to .0005”. So my measurements do not indicate that my Yamaha has a smaller cup diameter than the Schilke. The main difference is the throat and I find the inside cup bite sharper on the Yamaha. I find the Schilke has a more comfortable rim for me.
I do not have a 10A4a for comparison.
Ron
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Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014 |
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chase1973
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Location: Valdosta
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2024 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I tried a 10A4a once for sh!ts and giggles to see how it compared to a 6A4a-as I recall, the 10A4a has a sharper bite from the rim being flatter, the cup on the 10 is deeper than the 13A4a but not by much. The 13A4a cup initially, was more "V" shaped with a steep undercut whereas the 10 and 6A4a are more convex in shape, like the old Jet-Tone's. All Schilke stock A4a cups have a #27 throat. You might like the Chase 6A4a as it has a more comfortable rim compared to the stock 6A4a and #26 throat/ reverse taper design.
That being said, I'm amazed if ANYBODY can play a "stock" Schilke A4a piece without having any rim undercut added or rim alteration of some kind done. |
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