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Shallow MP Exposes High Note Technique Errors


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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
I've become jaded over the years with endless posts having the subtle, or not so subtle, emphasis on high range and the divide between those who do and those who don't and it's hard not to read "so I'm inferior because I can't play 125 dB double-high C's on demand" into such posts.


I agree, it does sound a bit boastful.

Jeff
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a guy on YouTube....I think we all know who he is...talks decibels when hitting high notes in a few clips.

Just saying....
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JVL
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the focus obtained with that "shallow mpc or not large ID" (which are relative notions), can work in a narrow IDs window at both spectrum sides of your current ID.
I consider to have a focused vibration (but i work on daily to improve it and to become more and more efficient on it), but i'd sound not as good or lose a lot of capacities if i gone to too large IDs.
For this purpose, i practice every day on my lead mpc and my deeper one, to feel at home with both, and never be disturbed in gigs if i have to change mpcs or instruments (flug, tp).
I prefer to work on response, resonance, aperture control, and take the marks on different cups with the air pivot.
Lip buzzing works wonders too with me.

The right mpcs, or the right mpc's parameters will help tremendously. But it's better to developp the qualities thanks to exercices/technics, rather than being dependent on a mpc which would limit your playing

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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
I've become jaded over the years with endless posts having the subtle, or not so subtle, emphasis on high range and the divide between those who do and those who don't and it's hard not to read "so I'm inferior because I can't play 125 dB double-high C's on demand" into such posts.


I think that's the gist of too many posts in the High Range Development forum. Too many posts are of the "look at me and see what I can do (or claim I can do)" variety. Too few posts give real objective proven advice about how to develop range. Too many posts focus on claims of playing extremely high notes that would rarely, if ever, be required in 99.999999% of gigs. Too few posts focus on developing a practical high range that would fall within the requirements of 99.999999% of gigs.

The forum is called High Range Development. It is not called High Note Development. There is a difference.
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jengstrom
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Sure, but I can’t even break 101 with the reader right beside my bell. 125 at any distance is insane!


And don't forget that the decibel scale is logarithmic, not linear. A doubling of sound pressure is only 6 dB, so going from 100 to 125 is roughly a 16 times increase in sound pressure. (25 dB is roughly 6x4, so if 6 dB is doubling the sound pressure, doubling it 4 times that is 2 to the fourth power, or 16.)

My chops would explode.

With respect to the OP, if this really was the reading he measured, I would question the calibration on his sound level meter. I used to do sound measurement for a living, and the single biggest problem with most meters used at home is there is no good way to verify calibration. You simply don't know if they are even close, let alone any frequency content or which algorithm was used to calculate the dB level.

John
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL!!! Boastful? Many of you here REALLY have some issues. If I was boastful I would brag about a 125 db DHC and not bother to mention that I am endurance challenged and have been working for some time to unlock the technique to endurance. I am in fact close to quitting trumpet over this endurance issue. It's not fun FAILING every gig about 2/3 of the way through.

The point of mentioning the 125 db DHC is to point out the amount of range I have developed and that is ain't just squeaks up there. Diagnosing endurance issues for a guy with a decent upper range is probably different that diagnosing endurance as we are developing our range. I am obviously doing something wrong and think a shallower MP might help. I cannot force things on a shallow MP like I find myself doing on a medium shallow MP and I think that has exposed my error. Maybe not.

I don't post a lot anymore for obvious reasons. There is hardly anyone left on TH that's worth having a discussion with anymore. You'd think people would want to enthusiastically discuss a shared interest. My mistake......
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:

I don't post a lot anymore for obvious reasons. There is hardly anyone left on TH that's worth having a discussion with anymore. You'd think people would want to enthusiastically discuss a shared interest. My mistake......


Have you ever considered people don't want to have discussions with you because as soon as they aren't 100% on your side you blow things out of proportion, say we aren't worth talking to and storm off? HERMOKIWI tried to ask you for clarification which I don't think ever really happened.

I find it quite rich that you are attacking Jeff, who came to your defense earlier.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
INTJ wrote:

I don't post a lot anymore for obvious reasons. There is hardly anyone left on TH that's worth having a discussion with anymore. You'd think people would want to enthusiastically discuss a shared interest. My mistake......


Have you ever considered people don't want to have discussions with you because as soon as they aren't 100% on your side you blow things out of proportion, say we aren't worth talking to and storm off? HERMOKIWI tried to ask you for clarification which I don't think ever really happened.

I find it quite rich that you are attacking Jeff, who came to your defense earlier.


I'm at fault a little too, and if this prevents discussion, that's on me.
The decibels statement was poking a little fun but I was serious, if you are playing DHCs in concert, I want to go, and hear it. I always need a good 125 decibel one in my life.

Now, for your frustrations, you said you are having success with your new shallow cup but need more time. I really think you answered your own questions. Just give it more time, and keep working at it. If it's not getting there after that, then maybe readdress how you are working on your high RANGE development and not high note quotas.

When I play charts that require loud, upper register work, I use a shallow v cup that works for me. At first, it was heavenly. For like five minutes. Then I bottomed out. Have I evolved from that? Yep. It just takes time my friend. You have only given yourself a couple of weeks from what I read. Keep playing and posting. All the best, Jr
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
LOL!!! Boastful? Many of you here REALLY have some issues. If I was boastful I would brag about a 125 db DHC and not bother to mention that I am endurance challenged and have been working for some time to unlock the technique to endurance. I am in fact close to quitting trumpet over this endurance issue. It's not fun FAILING every gig about 2/3 of the way through.

The point of mentioning the 125 db DHC is to point out the amount of range I have developed and that is ain't just squeaks up there. Diagnosing endurance issues for a guy with a decent upper range is probably different that diagnosing endurance as we are developing our range. I am obviously doing something wrong and think a shallower MP might help. I cannot force things on a shallow MP like I find myself doing on a medium shallow MP and I think that has exposed my error. Maybe not.

I don't post a lot anymore for obvious reasons. There is hardly anyone left on TH that's worth having a discussion with anymore. You'd think people would want to enthusiastically discuss a shared interest. My mistake......


If you're able to reliably produce the range you describe until your endurance runs out in the middle of the second 45 to 60 minute set I don't think that you are "...obviously doing something wrong..." Quite the contrary: You must be doing a lot of things right to be able to reliably produce those notes for that length of time.

No one can play in that range forever. Everyone will eventually run out of endurance. How demanding is the book? The problem may be that you're being asked to play an unreasonable amount of time in the high range. Your goal may be unreasonable/unrealistic/unattainable in this specific situation.

Many trumpeters believe that a shallower cup makes it easier to play the high range and that, by implication, if it's easier then it must increase the amount of playing you can do in that range before your endurance runs out. I don't happen to agree.

In a technical sense, a shallower cup might make playing the high range easier for some players, but I believe that the degree of "easier" is insignificant unless the prior mouthpiece was just plain wrong for the player and inconsistent with achieving positive results for that player in the high range.

You seem to be doing fine on your existing mouthpiece. So, I wouldn't expect going shallower to make any significant positive difference in your ability to produce the high range or any significant positive difference in your endurance. Going to a shallower mouthpiece will surely change something but it might not be all for the better. There is no perfect mouthpiece. All mouthpieces compromise something.

Endurance is a function of physical capacity. If you want to increase your endurance you have to stretch your existing endurance until what's normal for you in terms of physical capacity matches your endurance goal. There is so little (if any) mechanical advantage to a shallower cup that I don't think it will make any significant difference in your endurance. I think the answer is just playing a lot in the correct way. Even then, we all have a limit.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of solid info in these post. I have finally found the mouthpiece(s) trumpet bore combination that helps me play at my best. I am also incredibly blessed to have a very small mouth, thin lips and probably close to zero lip impingement into the cup. I can play very small pieces and get a good robust tone.

To the OP: The Maggio System For Brass has helped me quite a bit. I play the Endurance Study every other day and alternate with A Tribute to the Teaching & Routines of Bill Adam by Charley Davis. The Maggio Studies all go from pedal C to double C. The endurance study is half steps all the way up. I have learned to use air and compression and have never had to use enough mouthpiece pressure to leave marks on my lips etc. I also "naturally" unfurl both lips. I honestly didn't really know what exactly I was doing until recent years.

I alternate my Monette Prana mouthpiece on range day with my Marcinkiewcz Model 6, Patrick 12C or other legit piece (they are all very close in size etc.) on legit day.

Maybe I am wrong; however, I believe that most anyone can have an outstanding high range ... it is just knowing/learning how and then having everything working together in harmony.
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Last edited by RussellDDixon on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Shallow MP Exposes High Note Technique Errors Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
For the last year I have been struggling to improve my endurance. I went from playing lead with a band that played 35 minute concerts where I could occasionally hand off a tune to one that plays back to back 45 - 60 min sets. I have gotten to where I am good until the middle of the second set.

Now I can play a 125 db DHC and I play 400+ notes above High C in the 35-40 minute chop portion of my 1.5 to 2 hr daily practice sessions. I have performed DHCs in concerts. What is taking me out is the medium high to high Basie type repeating shout sections.

I started by tightening my trumpet some, went from a Wild Thing with a #1 slide to the #2 slide and now I play the Inspiration which is more efficient yet. I then worked on my breathing with Jim Manley, focusing on keeping tension out of my chest. Those items helped but I have been stuck.

Lionel mentioned in this forum how using a shallower MP helped him so I am giving that a try. I use a Wedge MP with a medium shallow cup and a #25 throat on a Warburton Q or KT backbore. I had Dave make me a MP with my rim and his LV cup. The LV cup is a step shallower but with a second cup.

The LV cup is easier to play and it's easier to get a bigger sound with. However, it doesn't allow me for force anything. I absolutely must be backed off and relaxed or I will bottom out and shut off. My medium shallow MP does allow me to get sloppy and force things, which kills my endurance. My biggest issue with trumpet is forcing things and progress for me invariable comes when I back off.

As is to be expected, when I am making the LV cup work I have very little chop strain. I am only a week into this new cup and it will take a couple more for me to get used to it. Meaning I can play it for a bit then have to go back to the medium deep--did that in my concert today. However, I think a shallower cup is the next piece of the puzzle for me.


I like the idea of keeping the same rim contour on all my mouthpieces. Keep in mind that I found the best time to try a new, shallower piece was after my embouchure began to tire.

Then as I progressed I'd put that shallower piece into the horn earlier and earlier each gig/rehearsal. Until I started the night with it. At this point it became one of my "main" pieces. I tend to agree with Jeff as the usage of shallower pieces can be very instructive.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant to comment on this thread sooner but never sat down to do it.

I have a somewhat related anecdote to share from my recent experience.

Lately I've been on a mpc safari and it has quieted down some. I downsized from a Curry 1BC to a Parke 640 rim on either a Bach 3B or a Bach 1-1/2C, depending on horn. Then I noticed that I was getting a small sound and my lower register was off - I couldn't center it. Safari contintinued. I went up to a Schilke M150*, then to, of all things, a Laskey 80C.

After using that for a while, I noticed some odd tendencies in my playing despite a generally good sound, so I went back to basics. I got out my Irons book and started really practicing them soft with a metronome. Almost whisper tone soft. I started practicing hard "poo" attacks to get my chops together and focused. Guess what happened?

The 80C started feeling too big again while the Parke 640 rim started feeling good again. Meaning as I regained efficiency and balance in my setup, and got my chops closer together, the smaller mpcs started playing easier. Sound in the lower register started to open back up on the narrower mpcs and centering improved.

So, based on my own experience, the experience of INTJ, and also what I've learned talking to many area players, I think I've come to agree with something that has basically been stated before:

Smaller and more efficient equipment tends to expose both flaws in technique and inefficient playing, while larger and less efficient equipment can cover them up.

There are a few caveats, of course:

-Larger and smaller are relative, just like deeper and shallower.
-Equipment that is too large and equipment that is too small are alike unplayable.
-Larger/smaller and deeper/shallower aren't the same from person to person.
-Other factors (such as undercut, rim shape and rim thickness) can affect the perception of size.
-Just because something has a tendency doesn't mean it occurs in every case.

It's practically an axiom, but due to the caveats, which can be summed up as "the human element," there's no real way to test it.
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