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Flugelhorn mouthpiece options


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Dizzyttc
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn mouthpiece options Reply with quote

I recently acquired a Yamaha 6310Z flugel. It came with the Bobby Shew mouthpiece. I am a recent comeback player after a 35 year break. Yes that is 35 years. I am finding the Shew mouthpiece very small in terms of inside rim diameter. I am looking for a bigger more comfortable mouthpiece to start with. I am wondering if a dennis wick mouthpiece will fit properly in a Yamaha flugelhorn? What would be s good size mouthpiece to start with that would have a wider rim for comfort? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Flugelhorn mouthpiece options Reply with quote

Dizzyttc wrote:
I recently acquired a Yamaha 6310Z flugel. It came with the Bobby Shew mouthpiece. I am a recent comeback player after a 35 year break. Yes that is 35 years. I am finding the Shew mouthpiece very small in terms of inside rim diameter. I am looking for a bigger more comfortable mouthpiece to start with. I am wondering if a dennis wick mouthpiece will fit properly in a Yamaha flugelhorn? What would be s good size mouthpiece to start with that would have a wider rim for comfort? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Welcome back! I picked up the trumpet after an almost 20-year break.

Some people use a flugelhorn mouthpiece that has the same diameter as their trumpet mouthpiece. What trumpet mouthpiece do you use?

Mike
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shew isn't particularly small. I'd put it somewhere around a Yamaha 14F4. If you feel the need to go larger it's an easy transition to the Yamaha 15 or 16 size. If you want something a bit larger in ID and a bit wider you could try the Reeves size 43. He has a variety of cups depending on your taste. Be sure to ask for the Yamaha (large Morse) taper.
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes you can use a Wick mouthpiece, but you need to get the straight taper version. I would recommend a 4BFL. I too, feel the Shew flugel piece is on the small side, I would liken it to a Yam 11F4. A Wick will be harder to play initially on account of being deeper and more open. Yam 14F4, 16F4 easier.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:18 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn mouthpiece options Reply with quote

Congratulations and welcome back. Good Luck with your mpc. search. I am trying to come back after aound 19-20 years. It ain't easy but it is fun.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there are a pleathera of mouthpieces available, made by a large number of companies.

No, a larger diameter won't necessarily be more comfortable. And IMO Denis Wick's rims are amoung the most uncomfortable - tend to have a sharp bite.

I agree that it makes things a bit easier if you can find the same rim as you like on your trumpet mouthpiece. Yamaha 14 rims size is a good choice - mid-sized (not small, not large). -similar to the Shew in size. If I remember correctly, the Shew rim is pretty narrow and rounded.

Note: there are 3 available shank sizes for Flugelhorn mouthpieces.. learn and choose the right one. fortunately a Yamaha Flugel accepts the most common of the 3.

https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=197_200


If you'r looking for more comfortable and a very consistent design.. look into Curry mouthpieces and the 3 series, my suggestion 3FL-Y.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:30 am    Post subject: Re: Flugelhorn mouthpiece options Reply with quote

Dizzyttc wrote:
I recently acquired a Yamaha 6310Z flugel. It came with the Bobby Shew mouthpiece. I am a recent comeback player after a 35 year break. Yes that is 35 years. I am finding the Shew mouthpiece very small in terms of inside rim diameter. I am looking for a bigger more comfortable mouthpiece to start with. I am wondering if a dennis wick mouthpiece will fit properly in a Yamaha flugelhorn? What would be s good size mouthpiece to start with that would have a wider rim for comfort? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


Since you have been away for many years, you may not be aware that there are 3 different standard mouthpiece shank designs for flugelhorn. They are:

Large Morse (or Yamaha) taper
Small Morse (or Bach) taper
French taper

Your 6310Z should use the Large Morse taper, so be sure that whatever mouthpiece you try has that shank.

If you are looking at the Dennis Wick line, you might also consider the Flip Oakes WT Flugelhorn mouthpiece, as well. He also makes the Extreme version, but that is probably not the place to start, as a new comeback player.
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Dizzyttc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies. Great information here. Years ago I played cornet and still have my mouthpiece after all these years. It is a Jim Shepherd Special. That's all it says on the mouthpiece. Has a really wide rim. Jim was principal cornet with Black Dyke.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is the Denis Wick will fit the Yamaha - I have a Wick 4FL and it works in my Chinese Cheapie stencilflugel. It sure does give a mellow sound. I personally don't find it uncomfortable but the only way to know is to try one.

I tried various mp's to see if there was one even mellower than the Wick - including a Shew flugel, a Bob Reeves and a Flip Oakes Wild Thing Extreme. They're all good pieces but none of them are as mellow as the Wick. He really found the sweet spot when he designed it.
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Last edited by Robert P on Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW Wick make two shank types, an 'F' as in 4F and 'FL' as in 4FL. The FL is the one you want to fit your yamaha flugel. You will also see a 'B' designation as in 4BFL which is a bit shallower and easier to play, but still deep compared to Bach flugel cups.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify about the Wick flugel pieces with quotes from the Wick website...

(using the size 4, for example)
4F - "All these models give a particularly rich and beautiful tone to the flugel horn not found in any other make. Made for European flugel horns". Mouthpiece Express calls these Bach (small Morse ) taper.

4FL "As above, with large fitting for USA and Japanese instruments". Mouthpiece Express calls these Yamaha (large Morse) taper

4BFL - "All these models have less deep cups than 2F, 2FL, 3F, 3FL, 4F, 4FL. They use the original DW cornet cups 2-5 and are intended for use in Northern European 'Fanfare' bands where flugel horns replace cornets. May also be used by players who prefer more traditional flugel mouthpieces.". Mouthpiece Express calls these Yamaha (large Morse) taper

5EFL - "Shank to fit copies of the popular Cuesnon jazz flugel". Mouthpiece Express calls these Couesnon (straight) shank.

They also offer a "D" suffix
"There is also a range of flugelhorn mouthpieces for German-style flugelhorns. These mouthpieces have a smaller fitting and a much shallower cup suitable for use in
rotary-valve flugels and for playing the high, melodic lines associated with these instruments. They have a 'D' (for Deutsch) suffix. Check the Denis Wick website for details.". No idea about the taper on these but from what I've read elsewhere, might be more similar to a trumpet shank.
https://www.deniswick.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Denis-Wick-Products-Mouthpiece-Mute-Comparison-Chart.pdf
https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=197_200_252
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petersenpbiker
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:49 pm    Post subject: Flugelhorn Mouthpiece Reply with quote

As a comeback player myself, I know what you are going through. Each of us is different, and with that in mind, what I did was to play on my trumpet with my old mouthpiece pretty steady for about 2 months, then I started researching and asking opinions before jumping. I haven't tried the Wick products, but have had great success with Curry on my flugel. In my section some use Yamaha mouthpieces and they work for them. So, my 2 cents, look at the "marketplace" for both a Yamaha and a Wick, then get whichever you find cheaper than new and try it out. And patience, don't forget your brain remembers more than the muscles do.

cheiden - great info!
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
To clarify about the Wick flugel pieces with quotes from the Wick website...

(using the size 4, for example)
4F - "All these models give a particularly rich and beautiful tone to the flugel horn not found in any other make. Made for European flugel horns". Mouthpiece Express calls these Bach (small Morse ) taper.

4FL "As above, with large fitting for USA and Japanese instruments". Mouthpiece Express calls these Yamaha (large Morse) taper

4BFL - "All these models have less deep cups than 2F, 2FL, 3F, 3FL, 4F, 4FL. They use the original DW cornet cups 2-5 and are intended for use in Northern European 'Fanfare' bands where flugel horns replace cornets. May also be used by players who prefer more traditional flugel mouthpieces.". Mouthpiece Express calls these Yamaha (large Morse) taper

5EFL - "Shank to fit copies of the popular Cuesnon jazz flugel". Mouthpiece Express calls these Couesnon (straight) shank.

They also offer a "D" suffix
"There is also a range of flugelhorn mouthpieces for German-style flugelhorns. These mouthpieces have a smaller fitting and a much shallower cup suitable for use in
rotary-valve flugels and for playing the high, melodic lines associated with these instruments. They have a 'D' (for Deutsch) suffix. Check the Denis Wick website for details.". No idea about the taper on these but from what I've read elsewhere, might be more similar to a trumpet shank.
https://www.deniswick.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Denis-Wick-Products-Mouthpiece-Mute-Comparison-Chart.pdf
https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=197_200_252


Thank you for this info.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:

They also offer a "D" suffix
"There is also a range of flugelhorn mouthpieces for German-style flugelhorns. These mouthpieces have a smaller fitting and a much shallower cup suitable for use in
rotary-valve flugels and for playing the high, melodic lines associated with these instruments. They have a 'D' (for Deutsch) suffix. Check the Denis Wick website for details.". No idea about the taper on these but from what I've read elsewhere, might be more similar to a trumpet shank.


Some more:
The Conn Vintage One flügel seems to have a slightly different receiver, Warburton makes a shank for it on special request;
The Wick mouthpieces are not really fitted for jazz playing, they tend to be too woolly IMO;
Schilke seems to produce a hybrid shank which should cover the American and Yamaha taper;
The mouthpieces with a German shank don't have a smaller fitting, on the contrary, they have a (bigger) trumpet fitting and taper. Your trumpet mp will fit in a Miraphone rotary flügel. The main difference is that the German shank is about one centimeter shorter than a trumpet mp. It's a misunderstanding that those mouthpieces all have shallower cups. You can have them in all sorts of cups. I myself play a Miraphone rotary flügel with a Bruno Tilz 'mitteltief' cup (medium deep) and Deutscher Schaft.
The Shew flügel mp feels and is smaller than the Yamaha 14F. That last one is a great mp for jazz playing, especially on a 6310Z. Don't expect a trombone sound (that seems to be the leading sound concept in American flügel playing), it will be more of a light, beautiful French flügelsound. There is no 15F. The 14F is 16.76 mm ID, the 16F 17.00. The Shew is only 16.54. The Yamaha measuring can not be compared with the Bach measuring.
Disclaimer: the Yamaha 14F can feel and play very weird when you are new on it, give it a few days and you will be surprised.
BTW all Wick FL and BFL mouthpieces will fit your 6310, they have a Large Morse (Yamaha) taper, NO straight taper. Wick itself uses the name European taper for American (Bach) taper (on the -F mouthpieces).
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Dizzyttc
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for all these helpful suggestions. Great information about the wick line.
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curtelverd
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dizzyttc wrote:
Thanks for the replies. Great information here. Years ago I played cornet and still have my mouthpiece after all these years. It is a Jim Shepherd Special. That's all it says on the mouthpiece. Has a really wide rim. Jim was principal cornet with Black Dyke.


If you like the way this mouthpiece feels, I would get a caliper and measure the inner diameter of the mouthpiece rim and then see what that matches up with being produced today. Wick makes all their mouthpieces with a wide rim that they label “W”.

I play flugelhorn in brass band and have found I like the deepest, funnel shaped mouthpiece. I play on a Warburton 4FLX, which is modeled after the Wick 4FL. It depends on the style of playing that you’re going to use your flugelhorn to perform. Brass band definitely requires deeper and funnel shaped. Where as jazz, you could get away with a more cup shaped mouthpiece and still get a warm flugel sound.

Hope that helps! Welcome back to playing!
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's hard not to have a good time with a flugel. for mouthpieces you can't go wrong with the curry line. even nicer are the flip oakes pieces.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
it's hard not to have a good time with a flugel. for mouthpieces you can't go wrong with the curry line. even nicer are the flip oakes pieces.


Yep and Yep.

I have a Monette Prana FLG and just got an AR Resonance Flugel Mp. Both those are yep and yep.
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MiddleStaff
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
To clarify about the Wick flugel pieces with quotes from the Wick website...

(using the size 4, for example)
4F - "All these models give a particularly rich and beautiful tone to the flugel horn not found in any other make. Made for European flugel horns". Mouthpiece Express calls these Bach (small Morse ) taper.

4FL "As above, with large fitting for USA and Japanese instruments". Mouthpiece Express calls these Yamaha (large Morse) taper

4BFL - "All these models have less deep cups than 2F, 2FL, 3F, 3FL, 4F, 4FL. They use the original DW cornet cups 2-5 and are intended for use in Northern European 'Fanfare' bands where flugel horns replace cornets. May also be used by players who prefer more traditional flugel mouthpieces.". Mouthpiece Express calls these Yamaha (large Morse) taper

5EFL - "Shank to fit copies of the popular Cuesnon jazz flugel". Mouthpiece Express calls these Couesnon (straight) shank.

They also offer a "D" suffix
"There is also a range of flugelhorn mouthpieces for German-style flugelhorns. These mouthpieces have a smaller fitting and a much shallower cup suitable for use in
rotary-valve flugels and for playing the high, melodic lines associated with these instruments. They have a 'D' (for Deutsch) suffix. Check the Denis Wick website for details.". No idea about the taper on these but from what I've read elsewhere, might be more similar to a trumpet shank.
https://www.deniswick.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Denis-Wick-Products-Mouthpiece-Mute-Comparison-Chart.pdf
https://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=197_200_252



This is an excellent explanation. +1 on the Wick.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brassmusician wrote:
Yes you can use a Wick mouthpiece, but you need to get the straight taper version. I would recommend a 4BFL. I too, feel the Shew flugel piece is on the small side, I would liken it to a Yam 11F4. A Wick will be harder to play initially on account of being deeper and more open. Yam 14F4, 16F4 easier.

By saying straight taper it sounds like you're suggesting the French taper which actually isn't tapered but completely straight. To my knowledge, the Yamaha Shew uses the Yamaha, large Morse taper.

I agree that the stock Yamaha flugel pieces are a sensible starting point. Though if you want something with a more specific sound there may be better options from Curry, Reeves,...
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