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Double pedals, now I get it


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Richard,

I just read you article https://trumpetpla.net/2016/06/08/einsetzen-ansetzen/. It's a great and informative article and I enjoyed it very much. Just one thing to note is that both Louis Maggio and Claude Gordon taught the use of sustained Pedal notes down to the Double Pedal C. In fact, if you use Systematic Approach you reach a point in the book where the last (held) note of each pedal exercise is slightly more than an octave above the lowest note in each exercise. At this point in the book if the student has developed the ability to, he or she can play all the way down to the Bb below Triple Pedal C in the arpeggio section of the exercise in order to end the exercise with a Double Pedal C as the last held note. Part One of Lessons Five and Six in the book are examples of this (though by just the fifth or sixth lesson, few players are getting down below the Double Pedal C if even reaching it at all yet). While most don't get that low, many of my students will play these exercises down to where they reach a G or F# below double pedal C in the arpeggio sections of exercises.

Claude did believe (and I agree) that while it can be done, sustaining notes below Double Pedal C is not necessary. That might be different in the view of players using the TCE approach.

Cheers,

John
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, the original poster, Callet himself, and others have quasi "peer reviewed" your hypothesis and tested it - and it has failed to replicate. Don't hold on to your hypothesis when further testing refutes it. Instead, form a new one and test it.


The resonance modes of the instrument and testing to verify them exists. There are no resonance peaks on the trumpet below the fundamental. (The first harmonic or "pedal tone") which is actually 1/2 of a wavelength.

"Slotting" is a generally accepted term referring to the presence of resonances OF THE INSTRUMENT and how defined they are and how they are experienced by the player.

So, according to how slotting is defined and accepted, there is no "slotting" of ANY pitch below the "pedal" C. (Note, as has been pointed out already: 1st pedal actually peaks below C3 by a whole tone or more, and is also a very broad, or less defined resonance compared to the more playable range of the trumpet)
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
However, the original poster, Callet himself, and others have quasi "peer reviewed" your hypothesis and tested it - and it has failed to replicate. Don't hold on to your hypothesis when further testing refutes it. Instead, form a new one and test it.


The resonance modes of the instrument and testing to verify them exists. There are no resonance peaks on the trumpet below the fundamental. (The first harmonic or "pedal tone") which is actually 1/2 of a wavelength.

"Slotting" is a generally accepted term referring to the presence of resonances OF THE INSTRUMENT and how defined they are and how they are experienced by the player.

So, according to how slotting is defined and accepted, there is no "slotting" of ANY pitch below the "pedal" C. (Note, as has been pointed out already: 1st pedal actually peaks below C3 by a whole tone or more, and is also a very broad, or less defined resonance compared to the more playable range of the trumpet)


I never thought I'd see the day when you would sort of come to my rescue Darryl, but you just did and thanks for it! I just would like to point that a few notes can be slotted below the pedal C by making use of the different valve combinations to reach down chromatically through the notes down to pedal Gb / pedal F# fingered with all three valves.
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure why you feel you need to be "rescued" here. It's just a trumpet forum.

But anyway, it's always nice to be told that what I (and others) experience is not really happening. I guess doesn't really matter - but anyone interested could always just try for themselves to find the elusive slotted double pedal C.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's common for different disciplines to use terms in different ways. I've found that experienced wind players use the term 'slotting' to mean playing a pitch with centered focus and core (neither wavering, spread, nor diffuse). And I believe this is the meaning intended here.

Good musicians, essentially by definition, hear the slot then adjust for pitch. Intermediate musicians feel the slot yet commonly fail to adjust for pitch. Less musical players are 'more tolerant' LOL.

Scientists can advance their own definition, and even claim it superior. And musicians with lower ear skills can quickly concede. But the great many players who have learned to consistently slot pedal tones aren't going to pay attention to players who say it can't be done. This is music. If you can't hear it then there is no reason to debate it further. Either learn to slot pedals .... or don't. But at this late date, further discussion should be about the possible benefits, not about whether already accomplished skills can be done.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some folks here are missing the forest for the trees.

If you read this thread carefully, the OP did not claim that the horn actually slots double pedals. Rather the claim was that a change of lip setup resulted in the double pedals feeling like they were slotted.

That claim was interpreted literally (and incorrectly) by someone who has virtually no understanding of Jerry's methods, and no sense of context.

Left-brained detail stuff has its place. This wasn't it.

Jeff
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
Not sure why you feel you need to be "rescued" here. It's just a trumpet forum.


It was a joke. Perhaps I should have place an emoticon right after that sentence to make it clearer. If you weren't aware of it, Darryl and I are on opposite sides of almost every discussion on the TH (or at least a lot of them).

epoustoufle wrote:
But anyway, it's always nice to be told that what I (and others) experience is not really happening. I guess doesn't really matter - but anyone interested could always just try for themselves to find the elusive slotted double pedal C.


Actually neither Darryl or I were telling you what you experience is not really happening. We were just pointing out the fact that the fundamental tone on a trumpet is the pedal C and in the open valve position there are no harmonics (what most people refer to as "slots") below it. I absolutely believe you are experiencing something and I find it interesting.

Have a nice day.

Sincerely,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptguy wrote:
It's common for different disciplines to use terms in different ways. I've found that experienced wind players use the term 'slotting' to mean playing a pitch with centered focus and core (neither wavering, spread, nor diffuse). And I believe this is the meaning intended here.


That's what I thought, too, and I wrote similar words ("Perhaps we are using the word "slot" in different ways"), but I was corrected by Forte who wrote in reply to me, "I'm using "slot" to mean click into place."

I like your definition of a slot by the way ("playing a pitch with centered focus and core") as it could refer to notes that are not a part of the actual harmonic series (including a well-played solid double pedal C).

Cheers,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Some folks here are missing the forest for the trees.

If you read this thread carefully, the OP did not claim that the horn actually slots double pedals. Rather the claim was that a change of lip setup resulted in the double pedals feeling like they were slotted.

That claim was interpreted literally (and incorrectly) by someone who has virtually no understanding of Jerry's methods, and no sense of context.

Left-brained detail stuff has its place. This wasn't it.

Jeff


Hi Jeff,

Maybe you should reread what the OP wrote. Here are his first sentences (with italics added to make it clearer):



epoustoufle wrote:
Double pedals, now I get it

Up til now I haven't really appreciated the role of double pedals. I know Callet and Bahb are big on them but to be honest they don't really explain the reason - although if you listen closely they are actually slotting these notes.

When I was playing double pedals before, they were not slotting.


I am happy to admit I don't know all that much about the teachings of Jerome Callet (other than what I've been reading on the internet for the past 18 years and also what I've heard on recordings of those that use his methods). But when it comes to reading comprehension I'm good.

Best wishes,

John
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Complete aside here - John, I reckon you could get a lot out of taking a Callet style lesson, be that with Bahb, Rich (trumpetplanet), Callet or the other teachers. Rich gave me a lesson on the fundamentals of the Callet system, and I have to say that I had some misconceptions regarding the system, and in no way do I practice the Callet methodology, but after our lesson there's a few Callet things I do time to time now. To my benefit! Double pedals being one.

In no way am I casting aspersions on you, John, but I'm glad I took the time to study this method, better as there's some awful stuff online which obfuscates the actual teachings of Callet. Even with Jerry's own books it was most beneficial to chat thru the ideology and approach. I know Rich has had lessons with Callet and Bahb and had an amswer and reference to every question!

Best,
Mike
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="John Mohan"]
trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Some folks here are missing the forest for the trees.

If you read this thread carefully, the OP did not claim that the horn actually slots double pedals. Rather the claim was that a change of lip setup resulted in the double pedals feeling like they were slotted.

That claim was interpreted literally (and incorrectly) by someone who has virtually no understanding of Jerry's methods, and no sense of context.

Left-brained detail stuff has its place. This wasn't it.

Jeff


Hi Jeff,

Maybe you should reread what the OP wrote. Here are his first sentences (with italics added to make it clearer):



epoustoufle wrote:
Double pedals, now I get it

Up til now I haven't really appreciated the role of double pedals. I know Callet and Bahb are big on them but to be honest they don't really explain the reason - although if you listen closely they are actually slotting these notes.

When I was playing double pedals before, they were not slotting.


I usually don't bother responding to you because I have learned it is a waste of time. This will likely be no different.

Go back and read the original post yourself. At no time did the OP specifically mention the harmonic series. "Slotting" can mean many things. It was your overly left brained interpretation, and desire to "correct" him that was fully in play.

It should astound anyone that you know so little about the Callet approach after all these years. Multiple videos demonstrating the double pedals, and multiple descriptions of the technique have been posted. In the BE book, there is a complete description of how the pedals are done. Yet, you still ask questions about it, claiming to want to know more.

At some point, the whole thing gets tiresome. I passed beyond that point a long time ago.

Jeff
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:
Complete aside here - John, I reckon you could get a lot out of taking a Callet style lesson, be that with Bahb, Rich (trumpetplanet), Callet or the other teachers. Rich gave me a lesson on the fundamentals of the Callet system, and I have to say that I had some misconceptions regarding the system, and in no way do I practice the Callet methodology, but after our lesson there's a few Callet things I do time to time now. To my benefit! Double pedals being one.

In no way am I casting aspersions on you, John, but I'm glad I took the time to study this method, better as there's some awful stuff online which obfuscates the actual teachings of Callet. Even with Jerry's own books it was most beneficial to chat thru the ideology and approach. I know Rich has had lessons with Callet and Bahb and had an amswer and reference to every question!

Best,
Mike


Rather than a formal lesson, I think a get-together with Richard or someone else (in person or via Skype) to share ideas and compare and contrast the approaches would be fun and informative. I'd LOVE to see a modern fluoroscopic study done with students from all the major approaches playing and see what's going on in everybody's mouths from the different approaches to playing.
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Forte
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
However, the original poster, Callet himself, and others have quasi "peer reviewed" your hypothesis and tested it - and it has failed to replicate. Don't hold on to your hypothesis when further testing refutes it. Instead, form a new one and test it.


The resonance modes of the instrument and testing to verify them exists. There are no resonance peaks on the trumpet below the fundamental. (The first harmonic or "pedal tone") which is actually 1/2 of a wavelength.

"Slotting" is a generally accepted term referring to the presence of resonances OF THE INSTRUMENT and how defined they are and how they are experienced by the player.

So, according to how slotting is defined and accepted, there is no "slotting" of ANY pitch below the "pedal" C. (Note, as has been pointed out already: 1st pedal actually peaks below C3 by a whole tone or more, and is also a very broad, or less defined resonance compared to the more playable range of the trumpet)


I was/am using the term "slotting" to mean "clicking into place". Is there a generally accepted term for this? If yes please provide it and I will use it instead of "slotting".

I understood of the resonance nodes of the closed tube resonators to be designated by the word "partial". Perhaps this is wrong. If so, please provide an explanation of a "partial".

Do you have any explanation for the perception of double pedals clicking into place--i.e. slotting like notes in the normal register as described by the original poster? This phenomena has been independently confirmed by numerous people.

Thanks,
Robert
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just refer you back to Kyle's answer at this point Forte. TBH I think this conversation ended on the last page...
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
I'd just refer you back to Kyle's answer at this point Forte. TBH I think this conversation ended on the last page...


I agree 100%. For what it's worth, I'm sorry I misinterpreted the OP's post and how he was using the word "slotting", and that confusion was furthered on my part when Forte replied, telling me that he did indeed mean slotting as in the note "clicking" into place, even in the double pedal range. That led me to believe you all think you slot notes down there in the double pedal range (as if they are actual partials). And in writing this, I do not mean to disrespect what Forte wrote - I am genuinely curious about what he is personally experiencing and describing.

Though I am not as ignorant of Mr. Callet's teachings as Jeff Smiley would have you think, I don't spend much time in your forum and therefore I don't really know (other than Kyle and Rich from the UK) who all the real authorities of the method are in this dedicated forum (though given that he's studied for many years with Jerry Callet, I think Forte must also be one of them). But I have been looking at videos and info on line over the years, including material by Bahb Civiletti and Rich on his TCE-UK website, and of course, some of the old VHS video material of Jerry himself on YouTube. I'm very happy with the results of my practicing the CG type material over the years (which basically means practicing from all the classic technical, flexibility and method books) and I would not want to risk what I've achieved by starting over and adopting a radically different way of playing (TCE). But I am curious, so I have and I do look at the material available.

And I do actually think that as we ascend to the highest notes, the difference between the typical up and forward tongue arch as taught by Gordon, Maggio, Irons, Colin, Smith and others, and the TCE type embouchure becomes less and less, especially when K-Tongue Modified (aka Dorsal Tonguing) is factored in.

For what it's worth, I actually used and still use one of Jerry's concepts each and every day in my playing - the spit buzz. I'd always had trouble articulating notes cleanly in the lower register (below middle C) when playing on the smaller spectrum of mouthpieces that I use (for me the Reeves 43C and 43M). After learning the idea of the spit buzz (probably in this forum), thinking about spitting a seed off my lip helped me overcome that issue.

Cheers everybody,

John
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For what it's worth, I actually used and still use one of Jerry's concepts each and every day in my playing - the spit buzz. I'd always had trouble articulating notes cleanly in the lower register (below middle C) when playing on the smaller spectrum of mouthpieces that I use (for me the Reeves 43C and 43M). After learning the idea of the spit buzz (probably in this forum), thinking about spitting a seed off my lip helped me overcome that issue.


Hmmm, spit buzz. Sounds like a drink at a college fraternity party, something concocted from bong water.

But what do I know. Bongs weren't around when I went to college; I wasn't in a frat and I'm a tee totaler. Trumpets are the only buzz I know anything about.

Warm regards,
Grits
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
Quote:
For what it's worth, I actually used and still use one of Jerry's concepts each and every day in my playing - the spit buzz. I'd always had trouble articulating notes cleanly in the lower register (below middle C) when playing on the smaller spectrum of mouthpieces that I use (for me the Reeves 43C and 43M). After learning the idea of the spit buzz (probably in this forum), thinking about spitting a seed off my lip helped me overcome that issue.


Hmmm, spit buzz. Sounds like a drink at a college fraternity party, something concocted from bong water.





I really did laugh out loud when I read the above. Thanks for that!
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone lip buzz the double pedals like Pops recommends? It really relaxes the muscles and gradually takes tension out of the face. Try it for a couple of weeks and see for yourself!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Double pedals, now I get it Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
Up til now I haven't really appreciated the role of double pedals. I know Callet and Bahb are big on them but to be honest they don't really explain the reason - although if you listen closely they are actually slotting these notes.

When I was playing double pedals before, they were not slotting. They were just low rumbles and I did not see the point. That puzzled me but it was about 10th on the priority list of what's wrong with my playing

Anyway, as I have posted elsewhere, I am finding the transition to TCE to be slow and steady rather than one AHA! moment. So I was messing around with the pedals the other day trying to get them to slot and found they did start to slightly. It required my embouchure (including tongue) to relax forward into the cup - at some point a "tunnel" formed between tongue and top lip and I was slotting the double pedals down to F#. This kind of happened spontaneously and I feel the trumpet pulling my lips into the cup (or into the correct shape) when it's working.

OK! So this is what the double pedals are for! Now bringing that feeling back to the normal register resulted in much less resistance and air pressure needed. I can't hold it very long so I go back to the double pedals and find the tunnel again. Anyway, just making a bit of progress and wanted to share


You are exactly right. Double pedal A is my base where I check in multiple times a day. Often!
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