Correct tongue position

[Leeway]

Coming back from a 16 year hiatus from playing, I'm working on the correct embouchere and tongue technique to free up range and attack potential.

I'm attempting to unlearn all my old bad habits in fundamentals.

My embouchure wasnt too bad but I was doing the classic mistake of forcing and pushing into the mp for higher notes. I'm trying to unlearn nb that which is not easy.

My tongue was always a bit lazy and I want to get to nice crisp attack.
There seems to be some variation in tongue position, some say anchor the tongue against the bottom teeth and use the flat front of the tongue on the roof of the mouth for attack rather than the tip on the back of the top teeth...

I've tried this and I did get reasonably clean articulation, however I found it hard to coordinate everything with this new tongue position.

Is this the correct technique and worth persevering with?

[Billy B]

Just say DEW or DAH
_________________
Bill Bergren

[kalijah]

Just do what feels most comfortable and what alows you to attack cleanly. Trying to "hold the tip" in a fixed position may not work if it doesn't feel natural. Attempting to hold this position could require you to hold the teeth and jaw in a more tensed and unusual position. This than affects the embouchure negatively.

[JoseLindE4]

Maybe, maybe not. Some folks will tell you that all great players do something like this, but I don't think that's the case. Many do, many don't. Or maybe more accurately, many great players try to do something like this and many great players don't try to do anything like this. Some great players observe something similar to what you described and others don't.

Of course, nothing probably feels particularly natural for you at this point and things that feel natural might not be productive, so keep an open mind. It won't break anything to try it for a few weeks. If it seems to help, then it might actually help. If it doesn't help now, it might in a few years. Or it might never help. No biggie.

Personally, I've made my living as a trumpet player most of my adult life (~the past 20 years) and have never had success intentionally avoiding using the tip (or any other description of these various approaches to tonguing). If I had to guess, 95% of the time I tongue on what feels to me like the tip (excluding any multiple tonguing) and maybe 5% it moves further back (again excluding any k articulation), but I haven't had much success worrying about it. I chase the sound and ease of production and let those guide my tongue. Whenever I chase anything else (e.g. any of the various tonguing philosophies), the system starts to break down for me. I'm not a "natural" player either.

[zaferis]

Well, it's not a natural thing to start with.. like learning to speak clearly, we practice over and over again for a long time, letting our ears and those around us be our guide.

I like the syllable "Tu" (Arban's book) with the caviate that we know Arban was French.. so a very "Frenchy" tu.. "tyu" the tongue a bit ellevated (with the corners of your mouth a little pursed - a bit "prissy" if you will)

Now you must also pass air over/through this.. so in practice without the instrument "Tu" (corners set) like you're half whistling and whispering - not vocalizing. Note this does not end in with a "T"
A crisp clean "T" followed by a steady flow of air like blowing through a small straw

Then on the instrument, over and over, refining the action to produce a clear and rhythmically accurate attack.
Starting slowly in the mid-range, then expanding in speed and range...

Having a teacher/mentor to work with over time to reinforce the good, and guide the progress is key.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[JayKosta]

[JVL]

hello
i only change my tonguing 3 years ago, with the tip on the bottom teeth, but not anchored, for jaw and tongue are in relationship.
I discovered one day, by case, practicing Clarke on the upper range, it gave me more accuracy in tonguing, single and mostly double and triple.
It took me weeks and months to master this technic, but already on the first couples days, i had made improvements.

be patient and disciplined, it'll pay
best

[Richard III]

It also matters the equipment you use. The diameter of the mouthpiece, shape of the cup, the bore size of the mouthpiece and the horn itself. They all play a factor in the approach. Plus your personal structure. All of this is why it is so difficult to tell someone else how to do it.

Let me give you an example. Playing on my 1903 Conn cornet with a period mouthpiece requires a very focused embouchure and the tongue operates in a very limited space. A light touch is needed and no muscling around is possible. Contrast that with a modern cornet and mouthpiece and the embouchure can widen and relax more. More open space for the tongue to operate. Larger resonance chamber in the mouth and great freedom to tongue different ways. Adjust any of the equipment variables and it changes again.

You have to find the place that works for your stuff and the kind of music you want to play.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[abontrumpet]

Your mileage may vary, but this changed my playing for the better:

When you release your first note, allow the tongue to stay as close, in distance, to that place while getting the sound you want. Economy of motion.

[JVL]

Richard is right concerning mpc, for with a deeper cup you must accentuate the air pivoting. I play on several mpcs, all with the same rim, and i have to make some adjustments with my deeper vs my lead mpc, even if the technic stays the same.
i'll put the link to the topic i asked advices to the late Mcgovnor and John Mohan about KTM, when i just started to adopt it.
best

[JVL]

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140279&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

[rmch]

The whole masterclass is gold, but from 25:00 to 30:00, Vince hits on a lot of stuff related to this discussion:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/4nnbnTDfZEU?t=1502[/youtube]
_________________
1919 King Liberty
1923 Conn 22B
1955 Selmer 24A (Balanced Action)
1981 LA Benge ML #3 bell
1938 Couesnon Flugel
1907 HN White Co. "King" Cornet
1977 Selmer Picc

[Rod Haney]

I say forget about where the tongue is and put it where comfortable that gives good attack. Then work on speed and extending range up and down with the same clarity as the middle register. I find that thinking too much about anchor tonguing or tongue level has not been productive for me and concentrating on the result guides me to correction as needed and they become second nature after a time. To me sound is a constant reference and I depend on it more than a specific technique. You are your own best teacher at times, other times not.
Rod

[JVL]

hello Rod
when you hit systematically the same walls (our problem, trumpet players, is we don't see all the walls, we just hit them , you have to wonder why, observe, feel what you're doing. That has nothing to do with the paralysis by analysis (or so, forgive my english)
i understood after so many years why i couldn't double and triple tongue with accuracy and fast in the upper register one day i was playing Clarke up.
Definitely, my tongue overcame this issue adopting king of KTM technic by itself, thing i had never been able to do, when many years before i had heard about this way of tonguing.
And to have precisions and earn time, i asked people about it, and John Mohan & Mcgovnor gave me precious advices.

i'll never tongue again like before !
jaw adjustements and lips alignment are crucial too, and must work together with the tongue.

best

[Rod Haney]

[Leeway]

Thanks to everyone for these insights.

The consensus seems to be that experimentation is the key as we are all physically different and what works for me may not work for you, plus trying to convey the action of what's going on inside ones mouth can be very difficult.

Range is another issue that involves the tongue but I might do another post on this as a separate thread.

[JVL]

hello Rod,
sorry i don't understand precisely some points of yours, beacuase of my english.
I'd just add that for years, playing sometimes somes classical concerti, i never tried seriously to overcome some issues, cleaning some licks, beacuse classical is not my speciality. But at one point, i could see that these weaknesses appeared in pro situations (jazz, salsa), of course not at the same degree, and forced me to work harder to play correctly some licks.
So i decided to try to clean everything, included and maybe mostly in classical music, to transfer these benefits to my whole playing.
I think one cannot skip to fix things, with the reason that you don't encounter often such or such difficulty in pro playing. At some degree, you have to pay the bill.
best