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Trumpets that sound like flugelhorns -- vs. flugelhorns



 
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LaggsZ
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Trumpets that sound like flugelhorns -- vs. flugelhorns Reply with quote

I've read quite a few posts regarding the various horns out there, how they sound, how they compare, etc. I'm still confused by something: people evaluating a trumpet (for example, the Martin Committee) saying "it's warm and smokey, like a flugelhorn," or "my father-in-law [Stan Getz] says it sounds more like a flugelhorn," etc. Instead of spending huge $$$ for a martin committee, why not just a get a decent flugelhorn then and sound like you're playing a Martin Committee for much less? In other words, if a trumpet is designed to sound like a flugelhorn, what the difference between that trumpet and a flugelhorn? Anyway, Stan Getz was not my father-in-law, but I did get stuck behind his Mercedes (NY license plate GETZ) a few times when he was stopped on Broadway in Irvington, NY, waiting to make a left into his mansion. I say "stuck" because sometimes he simply wouldn't turn even when he could. But I wouldn't honk at him, because maybe he was thinking about music. Anyway, thanks for answering yet another dumb question.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpets don't ever sound like a flugelhorn and also the reverse. But there is nothing wrong with playing a flugelhorn for most small group jazz. Think of Art Farmer or Clark Terry. I'm going to see Dmitri Matheny in a few days. That's all he plays, and it's Art Farmer's flugelhorn. I love it.
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LaggsZ
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, man! I guess some people like the "flugel-leaning" trumpet sound, but still retain some trumpet elements. I heard Roy Hargrove on flugelhorn... very nice.
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:54 pm    Post subject: Martin Committee Reply with quote

I'm neither a fan nor an expert on the Committee trumpets, but as far as I know the instrument was not specifically designed to give a "warm & smokey (sound), like a flügelhorn". Based on everything I have read and heard with my own ears, the original Committees were supposed to be a versatile and responsive instrument whose sound could change based on many factors, such as the player's choice of mouthpiece, or the player's personal conception. Then again, one could say that about any high-quality trumpet but the Committees seemed particularly well suited for the sound conception favored by jazz and commercial artists. Some players used their Committees for lead trumpet in a big band!

I guess there were later design variants made to facilitate a broader or darker sound. All those adjectives we use are quite subjective; some may argue that flügelhorns sound best when they are "sweet, light and fluffy".

In any case, another noted quality of Committees were their flexible slotting, which probably made them handle note bends like flügelhorns, but that is not the same as saying that they sound like flügels. If you want a brass instrument that sounds like a flügelhorn, buy a flügelhorn. If you want a trumpet that sounds like the classic Martin Committees of the mid-20th century...... buy a Martin Committee from that era! Peace.
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Last edited by Didymus on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The place I've experienced this the most was just a cornet with very deep mouthpiece. You can do something similar for trumpet, primarily through mouthpiece or possibly through the model (for instance there are some trumpets that add a shepherd's crook or larger bell and are made to sound more mellow). But what everyone says above is true: if you really want a flugelhorn sound, play a flugelhorn.

That said, I am curious what the go-to deep mouthpieces are for trumpet. On cornet I have a Yamaha 14e and a Wick 4.5 with a deep cup--I have no idea what the trumpet equivalents are.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No trumpet sounds like a flugelhorn. Not really even close. So, if you want a flugelhorn sound you need a flugelhorn.

That being said, the closest I've ever gotten to a flugelhorn sound on a trumpet is with a Wild Thing. The Wild Thing is truly a unique trumpet in that regard.

I do have a 1912 Conn trumpet (yes, a trumpet, not a cornet) with a .484 bore. A cornet mouthpiece doesn't fit the horn but I have a flugelhorn mouthpiece that does fit and with that mouthpiece the horn gets a mellow sound in the direction of a flugelhorn although it's still clearly a trumpet based sound. It's a very unique sound and the horn is a lot of fun to play. I've never heard a flumpet but my impression of where a flumpet fits in the sound spectrum matches (more or less) my impression of how my .484 bore Conn trumpet sounds.

Isn't it great that there are so many ways to approach and enjoy playing the trumpet!!
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on these kind of questions is that it makes life easier if you just accept that:

- Describing musical tones in words is challenging even when the differences are very obvious to our ears

- The differences we hear in our own, or other players', sounds when we change horns tend to very subtle and nuanced and largely overwhelmed by all the other factors that make us sound different to other players.

This leaves you thinking that it's bordering on pointless to try to describe the tonal tendencies of a particular horn in words. What's really wrong with that, though? Surely it's more helpful to just say 'yeah, it's got a fairly distinctive vibe but you've got hear it for yourself really' than offer something thoroughly confusing like 'it sounds like a flugel'. If I had to try and describe the tonal tendencies of the Committee in comparison to more mainstream horns, the word I would use is 'dry'. That might not seem to have particularly positive connotations musically, but it's honestly not in any way meant as a criticism of these instruments or the people who choose to play them. It's just the best I can come up with to relate what makes them distinctive to my ear.

I think it's also worth considering the possible power of expectations in causing people to actually play differently when they're holding a horn that comes with as much mythological baggage as the Committee, especially if they're major gearheads. I could easily believe this was going on (specifically, hearing Miles' sound in my head) on the odd occasion I've tried a Committee. I once got to hear a (very capable) player casually pick up a Committee and just blow and, to be honest, I couldn't tell any difference from how they normally sounded on their Yamaha Shew. Then again, this could also reflect the Committee being more similar to the Shew than conventional trumpet wisdom would have it. There do seem to be some similarities in design after all. Then there's the whole business of how representative an individual horn is of the model...

Mike
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michael_bxl
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This video came to my mind.

With the proper mouthpiece, the sound of the trumpet can really be fluegelhorned !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n50t8tcvPHE
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austincustombrass
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Link

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KRELL1960
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A curry TC or TF mouthpiece of even a Flugel mouthpiece with a trumpet adapter can make any trumpet sound flugel-like !!
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could just put a bucket mute on a trumpet. That sounds more like a flugelhorn than any of these mile-deep funnel cup mouthpieces do.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that it is extremely difficult for quite a lot of people to understand what a flügelhorn is and even more, what the sound of a flügel really is. A flügelhorn is not a fat trumpet, it will not play like a fat trumpet, it has not the sound of a fat trumpet and it is not possible to imitate by using a fat trumpet with a fat mouthpiece. That's the main reason that people with knowledge and skills, who like both instruments, own as well trumpets as flügelhorns.
Some bigband guys who don't own a flügel will sometimes use in a section such a deep trumpet/flügel mp on their trumpet because they got then something of a blend with the flügels of the other players.
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S Koons
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At a concert I attended, Arturo Sandoval had two trumpets. One, normal looking, had a bright brassy sound. The second, with a black, probably carbon, bell was very mellow. While not nearly as "fluffy" as a flugel, it was certainly on the spectrum toward a flugel sound. He didn't ever play a flugel at that gig.

SK
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wkh
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

S Koons wrote:
At a concert I attended, Arturo Sandoval had two trumpets. One, normal looking, had a bright brassy sound. The second, with a black, probably carbon, bell was very mellow. While not nearly as "fluffy" as a flugel, it was certainly on the spectrum toward a flugel sound. He didn't ever play a flugel at that gig.

SK


I remember seeing or reading Jason changed the leadpipe from #2 to #10 on this Summit Midnight trumpet for Arturo. It has the #8 bell. Jason said this is the most open & darkest configuration that he makes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1nOfbQ_GwU
Is this the same horn Arturo is playing? He seems to be able to make anything sound incredible? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ2rHlviaI8

Jeremy Pelt's Summit Midnight is lp 7 bell 8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTokgRrLTM4
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S Koons
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wkh wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1nOfbQ_GwU
Is this the same horn Arturo is playing? He seems to be able to make anything sound incredible?


The flugelish trumpet I heard him play had a black bell that I think was carbon fiber. I didn't see a trumpet like that in the video.
SK
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KRELL1960
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think it can go either way, you can make a trumpet sound"Flugel-like" and you can make a flugel sound "trumpet-like" depending on your set up and your ability to manipulate sound. Here's doc sounding very "trumpet-like" on a flugel starting around the 1:30 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFac_omWrBg
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KRELL1960 wrote:
I really think it can go either way, you can make a trumpet sound"Flugel-like" and you can make a flugel sound "trumpet-like" depending on your set up and your ability to manipulate sound. Here's doc sounding very "trumpet-like" on a flugel starting around the 1:30 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFac_omWrBg


After all these years, that is the first time I've heard Doc play flugelhorn. Gorgeous. Still doesn't sound like a trumpet but you're right, more trumpet-like. Thanks for the video.
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KRELL1960
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When doc created the band Xebron he played lots of flugel, here he is sounding much more flugel-like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syHdByk5HS8&list=RDi5Cztd1k4WM&index=2

this is him playing the same tune on letterman, around 2:30 into video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhlhgsNvhBk

nobody sounds like Doc, trumpet or flugel !!
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trumphat
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a Bob Reeves C2J mpc. It's amazing. Great tool for any trumpet player. Go to Bob's web sight and read the description.
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zmatook
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject: Calicchio 3/9 is a good option Reply with quote

Massive horn and the bell is pretty large too! It was honestly too big for me so I had to trade but I could get a nice flugel tone from it!

Calicchio 3/9

3 Bell

9 Leadpipe
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