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Cornet Lyre suggestions


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:39 am    Post subject: Re: Cornet Lyre suggestions Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:

Hi Lou

Hi Andy

If I have this right, it is the closeness of the music causing you an issue? SO your optician says a stronger diopter will being the closer than desired into focus? But, you can 't see far enough away for other necessary tasks during this gig.

Yes, thats it.

There are a myriad of solutions! You could try this:

-play it on a trumpet. Not a single person will notice. I have played these gigs on trumpet, cornet, bugle (once in a while) and not a single word has been made about the choice of instrument. Use the bell clamp lyre.

Thanks very much.

-You could get the stronger glasses with SMALL lenses so you can create a multi-focal panorama for your self. Glasses on music, normal sight for the vicar.

Thanks very much. I wondered about this, as some of my orchestra colleagues wear very small narrow glasses for music, presumably so that they can see the conductor over the top. Although I wear glasses full-time, my uncorrected distance vision is more than adequate for this, and a lot better than through glasses I would need to focus at the distance of a lyre mounted in the lyre box of my cornet. The only slight issue with this, is that if I was to use a bell lyre, it put the music up very high, and I could end up looking over the top of glasses with small lenses. Hopefully if I went with this option, I could use the lyre holder on my cornet, and bring the music down to a suitable height.

-You could also just get precise details of the service and go by aural cues.

-You could use a music stand with weights on it to keep it from moving about - or use your foot on it.

I've given all this a lot of thought, and have got out my large heavy conductors style stand, that I used to use for dance band work. I doubt that this would blow over. I tried putting my foot on my normal light-weight stand last year, but it was terrifically windy, gale force winds literally, and the stand was still whipping about. I could hardly stand up myself. Hopefully it won't be so windy this year, but it is such an open spot in the landscape, I imagine that it will still be windy.

-You could get someone to rebend a stock lyre with a long rod into a Z type shape which puts it past your bell.

I think that this would be the best option, as my bell lyre is large, fairly heavy and puts the music up pretty high on a cornet (it probably works better on a trumpet).

-You could just go and memorise a few hymns...

I'd rather not memorise everything.

It's not a big deal, just one that needs to be considered out of the box. I honestly think a music stand, pegs and weights will do just fine.

Thanks very much for all your very helpful suggestions. I think that I will wait for the lyre with the longer stem to arrive, see if it is long enough and whether I can find someone to bend it in time. If not, I'll experiment with using my heavy conductors stand (which I think I would ultimately be more comfortable with than a lyre anyhow) and a bell lyre on my trumpet.

I think I'll leave the glasses option for now, as it seems pointless for a once a year job, and my eyes might change between this year and next, considering that I am almost 45.


cheers

Andy

Cheers to you too

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Regarding what Dale calls his geriatric lyre, I wonder why this is not made as a stock item. Surely they would be very popular, as a lyre mounted on a short model cornet vertical lyre box ends up very close. Most of my colleagues wear glasses for music (apart from a few teenagers and people in their twenties, everyone is over forty, and a large proportion are over 60), and lyre distance is far closer than music stand distance. I presumed that my colleagues could switch from their music glasses to their reading glasses, but they are saying that even then the music is very close (closer than their normal reading distance, giving them the same issues that I am experiencing), and they can't see sufficiently well in the distance in reading glasses.

I imagine that a lyre that places the music a few inches behind the bell of a short model cornet, would be more convenient for the population overall, and a good seller.

All the best

Lou
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
Like Tom said, buy a lyre with a long, straight stem. Take some measurements and bend it to fit. I did the same thing to get a small book of music to a distance I could focus on it. I call it my geriatric lyre...



Hi Dale

Thank you very much. What you picture is exactly what I was trying to describe over the phone to a music store employee, when I asked about getting a general purpose lyre with a long stem. I gave up when he suggested a cornet lyre with a bent stem, and didn't really seem to understand when I explained that mounting a lyre with an initial horizontal section on to a cornet with a vertical lyre box, would result in the music facing the floor.

I've ordered a lyre with the longest straight stem that I can find. Hopefully it will fit the lyre box on my cornet and will be long enough to bend it in the way that you have. How please did you bend it? I imagine that I am going to have to have someone do this for me, as I don't have a vice or many tools.

Thanks again.

Best wishes

Lou


Hi Lou,

I bent it using a couple large adjustable wrenches tightened against the stem (one on either side of where I wanted the bend), along with some muscle...lol. If you can determine the dimensions you want between the bends, I'm sure most any music store tech can bend it for you in a few minutes. Just show them the picture I posted and they will get the idea. I'd take the cornet with you and see if they will do it while you wait, so you can test fit it and have them fine tune the position you want. It's hard to see from my picture, but it's also offset a little to the right to clear the bell.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The easier way would be to clamp it in a vice roughly where you want the bend (anything below will be straight) then bend it backwards with a little force (or failing that, gentle hammer persuasion)
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When bending metal lyres, I have always used heat. Clamp in a vice to determine where the bend will go, heat it up to just red hot, wait a few seconds, and then gently bend. If you then quench the lyre before it cools, it will harden the metal as well...
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
If you then quench the lyre before it cools, it will harden the metal as well...

I don’t remember enough from my metal shop class from over 40 years ago, but depending on the temp when quenched it can also make the metal brittle.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heat can also discolor the plating, which makes for an eyesore. The stem is just mild steel and is small enough to easily bend with a couple adjustable wrenches or a bench vice.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Sorry, I never did update this thread. I did buy a lyre with a long stem, but having no vice or tools I've been unable to do anything with it, and haven't bought some adjustable wrenches, as I don't think I have the skill to do this. There is a chap who plays in my husband's Jazz band, who made an adjustable length rod for my stock 1st valve trigger on my Bach 37 trigger, and I was going to ask him to help me, but we only practise fortnightly, and he was on holiday the time before last and ill last time, so time is running out. I'm hoping for a not too windy day and being able to use my large heavy conductors stand.

Things are however not as bad as I thought. In addition to the Last Post and Reveille march card, I'm mainly going to use the Tunes and Toasts book, as it has larger print than the Salvation Army Hymn Book, and has a few appropriate hymns as well as Royal Britannia, The British Grenadiers and Soldiers of the Queen, which should cover most of the requirements for the job.

I've had to buy a new standard lyre, as my previous one has broken, and this one has a rather narrow stem, meaning that I can tilt it backwards in the lyre holder. Although the music is not completely in focus until around 2" behind the bell, it is virtually in focus at the bell, and readable on my standard lyre (with this print size), although out of focus. I don't particularly like the idea of reading out of focus music, so I'll have a go with the bell lyre I'm kindly going to be lent, and enlarge the relevant pages of the Salvation Army Hymn Book, just in case it is too windy for my music stand.

As I said previously, I do wish that there would be a stock lyre solution, as all of us in my band's solo cornet section are reporting the same issues with a standard bell lyre, as it does make the music very close. At least it looks like I can use a standard lyre, but would probably need to enlarge the Salvation Army Hymn Book a little to compensate for the less than ideal focus.

Best wishes

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I thought that I'd update this old thread. I turned 45 last December, and just like what happened to my Dad, age suddenly caught up with me regarding my eyes, and I was finding that I was starting to hold things at arms length. I started wearing varifocals with a +1.00 add in February.

Being organised this year, I tackled reading with a lyre, a few months ago. I found that I can't possibly look out of the right part of my varifocals when reading a lyre anyhow, and even if I could, as I suspected the near section is not strong enough to bring music at lyre distance in focus.

I therefore did some experimenting via Amazon and Ebay, and found that +1.50 rimless clip on flip up reading glasses over my regular glasses work a treat. I've gone for this option, because I have cylinder and prism in my regular glasses, and I can flip up these reading glasses to walk around or take a cue from a vicar/conductor. How well I can a baton with them flipped down, I don't know as I haven't tried them in public, but there is no choice anyhow, as I have to see the lyre.

I thought that I might share this, in case it is of use to someone. Sorry, it is probably a bit late for UK players, since a lot of us are playing the Last Post and Reveille this Sunday. I've been meaning to post for sometime, but have been really busy.

Best wishes everyone

Lou
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I thought that I'd update this old thread. I turned 45 last December, and just like what happened to my Dad, age suddenly caught up with me regarding my eyes, and I was finding that I was starting to hold things at arms length. I started wearing varifocals with a +1.00 add in February.


I have bifocals for reading music at 3 feet and closer. The conducter is a little fuzzy but not a problem looking over the top of the glasses if I have to. The glasses are well worth the cost for the easy and clarity.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou,

If you look up Saxophone lyres, you can find bent stem lyres. Now, the final bend is probably in the wrong direction for you cornet, but you would only have to add one bend or get someone to weld a stem piece to it. Might be an option.

I use a small tube clamping lyre on a trumpet, but I gather that it would be to close on a cornet, especially since you say the bell lyre (I had to look that up) is too close.

Here also is a trombone one that might be adapted.
https://tinyurl.com/y4wwkr7r

I think we have to think outside of the trumpet box to help our aging eyes.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Quote:
I thought that I'd update this old thread. I turned 45 last December, and just like what happened to my Dad, age suddenly caught up with me regarding my eyes, and I was finding that I was starting to hold things at arms length. I started wearing varifocals with a +1.00 add in February.


I have bifocals for reading music at 3 feet and closer. The conducter is a little fuzzy but not a problem looking over the top of the glasses if I have to. The glasses are well worth the cost for the easy and clarity.


Hi Richard III

Thank you very much. My varifocals are working well for me at the moment. Colleagues have warned me that they become harder for music as the add increases, since the intermediate area becomes narrower with higher adds, and a faster progression to the near zone, makes it harder to keep both the top and bottom of the page in focus at the same time.

I do have single vision music glasses with a +0.50 add, but they have gotten a little weak for my 1 metre music distance, and I could probably do with a +0.75 add for music. I however don't wear them, as I find them useless for annotating music, or leaning forward to see what something tiny is or says, as they don't give me sufficient close vision.

What I like about my varifocals, is that if something is in tiny print, I have the option of moving my stand in closer (obviously with the shorter bell of a cornet, I can move the stand in closer than when I'm playing trumpet), and raising my chin. With my single vision music glasses, I can't move my stand in close enough, and tiny print ends up too small to see at a further distance.

Although fine in a brass band, in large orchestras, the conductor is still blurred with single vision music glasses. Working only for music distance, I find them too restrictive.

I did have a chat with my optician about Hoya Workstyle V+ Space, being a possible future occupational lens solution, but I've decided to stick with my regular varifocals for now.

None of these options would work for a lyre anyhow, as I end up looking through the distance area. The clip on flip up readers, turn the distance part into reading glasses.

Thanks again

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Hi Lou,

If you look up Saxophone lyres, you can find bent stem lyres. Now, the final bend is probably in the wrong direction for you cornet, but you would only have to add one bend or get someone to weld a stem piece to it. Might be an option.

I use a small tube clamping lyre on a trumpet, but I gather that it would be to close on a cornet, especially since you say the bell lyre (I had to look that up) is too close.

Here also is a trombone one that might be adapted.
https://tinyurl.com/y4wwkr7r

I think we have to think outside of the trumpet box to help our aging eyes.


Hi cgaiii

Thanks very much for your very kind suggestions, and link.

My close vision, which was bad enough when I stated this thread just over a year ago, has gotten really awful during the last year. The music on the lyre isn't simply a little blurred, it is not remotely readable. I can barely even make out the title, which is in pretty reasonable size print. Sadly, no amount of bending of longer lyres is likely to make any difference any more, as with just distance glasses (which is the area of my varifocals which I end up looking through when reading from a lyre), I wouldn't be able to see a march card sized print within the length of my arms.

Thanks very much however for your really appreciated suggestions.

Best wishes

Lou
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poor vision sucks. I'm sorry for your condition but know that many of us are with you.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou,

Yes, vision troubles are really difficult to deal with. I hope you find a solution, but marching is a very difficult need for both types of vision, both close and distant. I use graduated focus glasses too, and the smallness of the area of focus makes them tough to use for lyre. If you are at a music stand another set of glasses is a solution, but not when you also have to see the ground. For driving, I got my optician to move the close focal area down. I wonder if there could be a larger area set up, higher in the glasses or the sweet spot moved for you.

I guess it is that or memorizing the music like you used to. Anyway, as the Japanese say, ganbatte -- keep working at it.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Poor vision sucks. I'm sorry for your condition but know that many of us are with you.


Hi kehaulani

Thanks very much. I'm not overly worried about it. A lot of the problem is that I have latent hyperopia. In a nutshell, I am more long-sighted than my distance prescription suggests, owing to me over-focusing. Since I am over-focusing for distances, less of my remaining focusing ability is available for close vision, making me need an artificially high reading add.

If my eyes would relax enough to wear my full distance prescription, although at the age of 45, I'd still need a reading add, it wouldn't be so high.

Thanks again

Lou
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Hi Lou,

Hi cgaiii

Yes, vision troubles are really difficult to deal with.

Thank you.

I hope you find a solution, but marching is a very difficult need for both types of vision, both close and distant.

Luckily, I don't need to march. All I need to do is stand in a quartet around a war memorial. I'm not even sure if we will be conducted, as this is my first time out with a new band. If not I'll be fine.


I use graduated focus glasses too, and the smallness of the area of focus makes them tough to use for lyre.

I don't find the size of the area of focus to be the difficulty, rather the location. My cornet has a vertical lyre box on the leadpipe. I end up looking up at the music, and hence through the distance part of my varifocals.


If you are at a music stand another set of glasses is a solution, but not when you also have to see the ground.

Thank you very much again. I personally find that a prescription which gives me good vision at music stand distance (Especially on trumpet, I prefer the stand further away (around a metre), so that the bell is not in front of the stand), give me insufficient close vision to for example read the numbers/titles in a march card sized hymn book.

For driving, I got my optician to move the close focal area down. I wonder if there could be a larger area set up, higher in the glasses or the sweet spot moved for you.

Yes, possibly, but I don't currently use a lyre often enough for this to probably be financially viable.

I guess it is that or memorizing the music like you used to.

I wouldn't fancy memorizing the music. If I had to march, I think that I'd try very narrow single vision reading glasses, which I could look over and under, as my distance vision is pretty good. My optician has told me that I shouldn't leave off my glasses, as this further encourages my eyes to over focus, but I can see well enough, legally well enough to drive, although the last time I tried it, I wasn't very happy with my vision for driving in the rain!

Anyway, as the Japanese say, ganbatte -- keep working at it.

I will do, thanks. These clip on flip up reading glasses are working very wel for seeing the lyre, so at least the seeing the music side is solved. I can't see much else, but hopefully it won't matter.

All the best

Lou

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Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:


I will do, thanks. These clip on flip up reading glasses are working very wel for seeing the lyre, so at least the seeing the music side is solved. I can't see much else, but hopefully it won't matter.

All the best

Lou


Ah Ha. I must have missed that reading through the thread. Sounds like a great solution for a standing performance -- then you can flip them up and make it off the platform, steps or whatever you are standing on. Sorry for all the noise.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:


I will do, thanks. These clip on flip up reading glasses are working very wel for seeing the lyre, so at least the seeing the music side is solved. I can't see much else, but hopefully it won't matter.

All the best

Lou


Hi cgaiii

Ah Ha. I must have missed that reading through the thread. Sounds like a great solution for a standing performance

Yes, I think so, especially since they enable me to see the music very well.

-- then you can flip them up and make it off the platform, steps or whatever you are standing on.

Yes, exactly, that was what I was thinking. They do look fairly ridiculous, especially when worn flipped up, but luckily I have no vanity lol.

Sorry for all the noise.

You have nothing to apologise for at all. I fully appreciated your suggestions.

Best wishes

Lou

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Kanstul F Besson C
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:

Yes, exactly, that was what I was thinking. They do look fairly ridiculous, especially when worn flipped up, but luckily I have no vanity lol.

A great personality trait for a trumpet/cornet player given how much we stand out and particularly when we do something wrong.
_________________
Bb: 1995 Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Kanstul 1510-2 (SP) (circa 2000)
Picc: 2001 Kanstul 920 (SP)
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Natural/Baroque Tr: Altenburg (raw brass)
Bass Tr: Mack Brass stencil (Jin Bao) (SP)
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