Arresting Red Rot

[Leeway]

My poor old Committee was unfortunately 'ridden hard and put away wet' many years ago when I stopped playing. It sat in its case mostly on its end and some yuk must've sat in the crook of the tuning slide and the result is red rot in this area as well as some spots in the leadpipe. There are no leaks but I dont want this to go any further and necessitate patching.

These days (now playing daily) I hang the horn up with the tuning slide out and hanging in the throw ring so nothing can sit in the crook and continue eating away at the brass. I flush the leadpipe and tuning slide out every now and then too with hot water.

Being a Blacksmith by trade, I often use bicarb of soda to neutralise oxidation on iron which I often "age" with hydrochloric acid.

I'm thinking bicarb might also arrest red rot by neutralizing the corrosive properties of saliva.

I'm also wondering what "Chemical Cleaning" means when one takes a horn to be serviced and cleaned. I wouldnt be surprised if bicarb or sodium carbonate is often used in that process.

What does the knowledge bank say?

[James Becker]

The problem with "red rot" of brass is the removal of zinc which is 30% of the alloy, what remains is the other 70% in the form of porous copper. Once the zinc has dissolved there's is no way to reverse this damage.

Chemical cleanings, including ultrasonic cleaning involve the use of mild acids, sometimes referred to as a pickling solution. This aids in the removal of the hard green crud (copper carbonate) and bio film.

Once cleaned, we suggest dropping valve oil down the bore to coat and protect brass from the damaging effects of condensation from your warm breath, really not so much is actually saliva. Daily swabbing of your leadpipe after playing followed by oiling will go a long way to maintaining a corrosion free leadpipe.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[LittleRusty]

One thought about the tuning crook is that you could consider finding a donor horn that has a tuning crook that can be fitted to replace yours.

[Leeway]

Interesting. So it's the Zinc that dissolves.
Obviously no way to reverse the condition, halting it is only thing to do if possible.

Has it been thought of to coat the inside of these vulnerable areas with some kind of product that seals after cleaning?

A donor tuning crook might be a tall order for a Committee, especially mine as it's a pre Ramirez redesign Kenosha Horn. An Elkhart #3 bore crook might fit as these horns were still basically made to Elkhart specs, but theres no guarantee. Im not 100% sure if Leblanc kept the taper in the crook as the pre 1972 horns have. Some careful measurements would be needed.

It's not quite at the stage where I need a replacement, but possibly not far from it. The rot is very close to the outer surface and the lacquer is brittle and can be scratched off over the red spots.

[LittleRusty]

Shofarguy partnered up with another member to create a nano coating to protect the inside of horns. Perhaps he will join the conversation to share some of his thoughts. If you desire googling, using site:trumpetherald.com and nano should find some of the threads.

[James Becker]

Unfortunately the Leblanc Committee tuning crooks were not tapered, but cylindrical. I was once given a box of Committee parts from Wallace Roney to assemble. For his tuning slide I telescoped the bore starting with a M bore top tube, ML crook, L bore lower tube. It worked out quite well and Wallace approved. FWIW his Kanstul made Committee has a tapered crook even if it’s radius is more pronounced “squared” profile.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[Manuel de los Campos]

If I were you I'll wait until holes appear and than patch the holes. A cheap solution and you will keep you unique shaped parts
_________________
Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)

[Evinerate]

I read this from Google concerning the Dezincification of brass,

"Dezincification can be caused by water containing sulfur, carbon dioxide, and oxygen. Stagnant or low velocity waters tend to promote dezincification. To combat this, arsenic or tin can be added to brass, or gunmetal can be used instead."

Maybe things can be added to brass to prevent dezincification?

[JonathanM]

As far as 'arresting' further rot, I read (or heard on Youtube?) that Jason Harrelson rinses and brushes (if I recall correctly) his leadpipe and tuning slides with alcohol (Isopropyl). I've used many cleaning and polishing compounds on horns but nothing I've seen gets a leadpipe and slide cleaner from rot or gunk than this.

Very basic, I know, but a great aid in keeping a horn clean, and/or prohibiting further deterioration.
_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[Leeway]

[cbtj51]

[James Becker]

I’m well aware that the Kenosha Martin trumpets are quite different, just look at the bore sizes .460” and .465” suggest these are not the same. I’ve serviced them all and yes, many parts are interchangeable but not all. For example leadpipes remained unchanged, but not necessarily mouthpiece receivers or top tuning slide tubing. Crooks still share same span and profile/radius, but not the bore. Different bell entirely, and so on.

As for drying out the bore, not everyone has an air compressor like I use in our shop. However there are cans of compressed air you can buy and carry in your case should you want to blow out the condensation. Followed up with some valve oil down your leadpipe and on your valves and the inside of your instrument is protected. Not all that different than flossing and brushing your teeth after meals. It’s really not all that hard to do.

I’d suggest brass players follow the lead by our woodwind playing colleagues and take the time to dry out your instrument before storing it in it’s case. Clearly they’re keenly aware of the consequences of not doing so.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[shofarguy]

[Liberty Lips]

It's a pity that STOP Rot! never made it to market. I think it would have been a great benefit.

[Leeway]

I tried out a product that many of us will have on hand if we like that new car look on the dash and door trims of the Bentley....Armour All Protectant.

I removed the tuning crook, cleaned the lead pipe with hot water and bicarb, rinsed, dried it and shot a good spray of the stuff down and swabbed it out with a dry cloth a few times and voila!

After playing and plenty of moisture to be expected, the lead pipe is dry.

No condensation visible. It seems the moisture simply beads in there and gets blown through the horn, having nothing to accumulate on. It never touches the brass.

Some may say the thin film of goo goo would affect resonance and possibly it does, however I can discern no difference in timbre and to me, whatever affect on sound there may be and I suspect its negligible, is well worth the protection of the metal and the costly repairs that will inevitably result.

I've done the Tuning Crook too and that will do it.

Water proofed in all the most vulnerable places and ready for another decade of music.

[yourbrass]

[Leeway]