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Mouthpiece buzzing?


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Tenring
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece buzzing? Reply with quote

I had my second formal lesson this evening. I suck at mouthpiece buzzing. My daughter buzzes like a champ but struggles to make clean notes. I can't buzz well to save my life, but I'm getting out nice clean notes. I can buzz after a few attempts, but buzzing up and down like a siren is a struggle. My buzzing in general though is pitiful.

I feel to get a smooth buzz I have to adjust my embouchure to a different way then when I'm playing notes on the trumpet. When I play the trumpet I'm pretty square to my teeth. To buzz I definitely point the mouthpiece more down. If I hold the mouthpiece to my lips as if I'm playing the trumpet I can buzz, but its higher pitched. I also find it challenging to play lower notes below A down to G flat.

He sent me home with a circle of 5ths exercise slurring and tonging to help me learn my way around the notes and fingerings which I look forward to doing as it was fun, but the BUZZING..... very frustrating.

He didn't say much for now except to keep at it at least 5min a day and he'd evaluate it further next week.

Any tips to get over this hump are appreciated. 30 years ago I don't remember ever becoming a competent buzzer. Then again I never had formal lessons either.

Charles
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no fears you will get good at it. relax and don't create anxiety. keep the same embouchure for the buzz.
it goes without saying to start with pedals or the low notes.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find (lip and) mouthpiece buzzing exercises to be useful, and do them every day. Some (many?) very fine trumpet players do not mouthpiece buzz. They find it pointless or even counterproductive. It isn't an essential skill, or at least isn't essential for everyone.

The key thing is that you get a good sound when you play your trumpet. Your teacher probably has some specific goals in mind for you with the mouthpiece buzzing. That's great, and you should ask what those goals are. But as long as you continue to produce a good sound on the trumpet I wouldn't worry too much if you never become a good mouthpiece buzzer.

Good luck!
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how many years ago have you started playing trumpet ?
you don't give us enough infos.
if you get clean notes (on the horn? on the mpc? please precise), you should be able to buzz mpc.
for the sirene, if you can't do it, it may be dued to many reasons :
-spread aperture
-pinched aperture
-no breath support
-no air pivoting in the cup
-overblowing
etc.

your teacher should be the good person to answer you
best
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I feel to get a smooth buzz I have to adjust my embouchure to a different way then when I'm playing notes on the trumpet."

I use mouthpiece buzzing to fix specific problems, never as part of a "normal" routine.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
I find (lip and) mouthpiece buzzing exercises to be useful, and do them every day. Some (many?) very fine trumpet players do not mouthpiece buzz. They find it pointless or even counterproductive. It isn't an essential skill, or at least isn't essential for everyone.

The key thing is that you get a good sound when you play your trumpet. Your teacher probably has some specific goals in mind for you with the mouthpiece buzzing. That's great, and you should ask what those goals are. But as long as you continue to produce a good sound on the trumpet I wouldn't worry too much if you never become a good mouthpiece buzzer.

Good luck!

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Tenring
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JVL wrote:
how many years ago have you started playing trumpet ?
you don't give us enough infos.
if you get clean notes (on the horn? on the mpc? please precise), you should be able to buzz mpc.
for the sirene, if you can't do it, it may be dued to many reasons :
-spread aperture
-pinched aperture
-no breath support
-no air pivoting in the cup
-overblowing
etc.

your teacher should be the good person to answer you
best


I think the teacher is still evaluating what to do with me. I haven't played in 30 years, so I'm completely starting over. I started playing scales about 2 months before my first lesson. I can play a good C scale up and down tonging and slurring. I do have a little bit of a tremor when I play long tones. I can buzz but not starting at a low pitch as the instructor does. I can, but then I can't pitch it up very well. My natural buzz would start at a higher pitch and I can siren up and down. But if I start at a lower pitch is where it all falls apart and I feel I have to change my embouchure. If I had to describe my natural embouchure maybe I start with a more rolled in embouchure that makes it easier to play up the scale from C to C. Going below the middle C, I can go a couple of notes but gets harder.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so don't worry, nothing surprising
Start buzzing, and playnig from your easiest, comfortable pitch, and expand everything up and down from this note.
For instance, players like Bobby Shew, Wayne Bergeron, Arturo Sandoval say their "home" or base note is the second line G.
For others, it'll be higher. For me, i like to start on low C.
Listen to your body, and be patient, you'll improve
best
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another way to work on your buzzing is to use just the lead pipe. You can take out your tuning slide and put the mouthpiece in as usual. This adds some resistance and may make your buzzing feel more natural. This is not exactly the same as just buzzing on the mouthpiece, but some like it better. YMMV.

You might give it a try and see if it leads to being able to buzz the mouthpiece more easily.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask your instructor why he wants you to buzz the mouthpiece.
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Tenring
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Ask your instructor why he wants you to buzz the mouthpiece.


He knows my work situation...My guess is because I’m gone for work 3-4 days every week and he wants me to do something every day.
Charles
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tenring wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Ask your instructor why he wants you to buzz the mouthpiece.


He knows my work situation...My guess is because I’m gone for work 3-4 days every week and he wants me to do something every day.
Charles


Buzzing may be used for a number of reasons, but it is not an acceptable substitute for playing the trumpet.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rather than "buzz" your mouthpiece you'd be better off playing it. For many this will be easier on the entire lead pipe but if you're doing this at work or in the car, I suggest you hold a piece of ribbon or tissue in front of the end of the shank about 4" away to be certain you are actually moving some wind through the piece as you attempt to make a sound.

The vast majority of kids I taught over 40-some years would make a tone on a mouthpiece but there was little to no wind column moving to support the tone. Easy to verify with the ribbon or tissue- if it isn't moving out and standing quietly in the moving wind, you need to make some adjustments. Good luck.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few thoughts on buzzing.
- Don't modify your embouchure to buzz, that's counterproductive
- Don't buzz loudly. Strive for a gentle airy sound. This is s refinement exercise not strength building
- Don't expect to be able to buzz a huge range when you start. Find a simple exercise in Stamp or Schlossberg that only spans a few notes. Work on doing that easily then expand up and down slowly.
- Don't buzz for long. 5-10 minutes max.

If buzzing doesn't show benefit in a few weeks then you might consider abandoning it, at least until you can get better supervision from a qualified teacher.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece buzzing? Reply with quote

Tenring wrote:
I feel to get a smooth buzz I have to adjust my embouchure to a different way then when I'm playing notes on the trumpet. When I play the trumpet I'm pretty square to my teeth. To buzz I definitely point the mouthpiece more down. If I hold the mouthpiece to my lips as if I'm playing the trumpet I can buzz, but its higher pitched.


I was always a non-buzzer and was really bad at buzzing. I decided to get better at it in my doctorate to sometimes catastrophic results. But I thought that regardless of whether buzzing is useful to improvement, my lips should be able to produce the buzz if I decided I wanted to do it. Since I couldn't do it, I thought, well surely my playing is somewhat less efficient due to a slight disconnect between mind and body in at least this one case. If I could create another connection between mind and body, another pathway, then I should be better off.

The reason I quoted this portion of your post is because this was my experience as well. Ultimately buzzing for me highlighted that my mouthpiece placement wasn't ideal and I found that buzzing was more a good checkpoint marker to track progress. As I got better and more efficient, so did my mouthpiece playing. Not the other way around.

My suggestion is to keep mouthpiece buzzing UNDER 5 minutes a day and to play tunes by ear and sirens. Don't try and get too exact at the beginning. As you improve then become more structured in your approach. Don't get critical and analytical about the physical (facial) things that happen when you buzz, just that you're moving adequate air through the mouthpiece (Chieden suggested airy sound; that's definitely at least the approach you want even if it doesn't sound airy to you; lead with the air as Craig Swartz suggests).

Ultimately the mouthpiece acts like "bending" a note. You are artificially producing a pitch that doesn't jive with the acoustical properties of playing a trumpet efficiently. But both strengthen the mind body connection. As a logical extension to that, buzzing the leadpipe (as cgaiii suggests) in between the partials is also a good corollary to improving mouthpiece "goodness." A good video to check that out is this one at 12 minutes.

Link


Don't get hung up on it. Let it develop naturally as you progress. Enjoy!
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Proteus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently had a lesson with Jim Thomson:
[https://www.esm.rochester.edu/faculty/thompson_james/]
[https://www.jamesthompsonmusic.com/the-buzzing-book]

He advocates being able to produce a clear, focused buzz in all registers (but one starts in the lower part of the staff and it's a very gradual process). I understood that he feels the instrument is simply an amplifier; that it all starts with the buzz; and that buzzing must be done correctly.

Buzzing without an understanding of why you're doing it and what it should sound like is wasted time and effort. I recommend you check out his buzzing book and read the foreword that explains the thinking behind it.

BTW - Jim was former principal trumpet in the Phoenix, Montreal and Atlanta symphonies and has been Professor of Trumpet at Eastman now for years. He feels correct buzzing provides serious benefits, and that should tell you it's worth checking out.
Cheers.
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Bwat
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proteus wrote:
I understood that he feels the instrument is simply an amplifier; that it all starts with the buzz; and that buzzing must be done correctly.


Eh, no. Buzzing is not necessary. Here's all you need to know and it takes only one minute of your life to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz5fow-pf68

Here's a physicist who explains it in a decent level of detail - "we don't have to make the lips go!": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVs2G60-ilo
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If buzzing helps you then do it. If it doesn’t then stop and do something else.

Some reasons to buzz the mouthpiece:

It removes lots of muscle memory cues embedded in holding the horn and wiggling the valves. Taking away those cues may help you identify fundamental roadblocks like excess tension (wherever it might be), inconstant air flow, breaks between notes when slurring, etc.

Some reasons not to buzz:

Its not really the way steady state sound is produced. The air inside the horn produces a standing wave. The standing wave vibrates your lips on any individual note. This breaks down somewhat as you slur wider intervals where you want them to be connected. Not like playing an interval on the piano. More like singing.

My experience is that buzzing helped when done in small amounts for a few days or weeks to focus on specific issues. But I almost never do it to warm up or to do buzzing excercises.
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Tenring
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on my 3rd lesson. He really likes the sound I'm producing. I have some cracks here and there, but am getting smoother. He still wants me buzzing. I still really stink at it... I did ask him why and it was somewhat difficult for me to totally understand why, maybe I'm dense, or just have a pre-conceived roadblock in my head that keeps me from understanding. I still pressed for better understanding. I think what I gathered is he couldn't tell the direction of my airflow. Again I'm a comeback player from 30 years ago with no real "formal" training except from band in school. What incorrect things I learned to compensate I have no idea. BUT he had a hard time reading how I manipulated my lips when I played higher notes vs. lower notes on the horn. On the mouthpiece alone it was still hard for him to tell. In discussion anyways his main point was that as I just lip buzzed as I increased pitch the airflow will have a more downward flow. As I pitched lower it would be more straight. Me being a very analytical person have struggled with it. Like one of the links above, when I buzz on the mp and remove from the trumpet it is silent. So again for me to buzz smoothly is not how I play pretty tones... My brain hurts. Thanks for those video's those definitely help my brain. And create confusion as to why so many advocate buzzing. I can conclude at this point its just an exercise to build control...
I like this explanation… But he says noting about the direction of airflow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxiFMlvY3_8
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Bapman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B.E.R.P.
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