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Satin Finish



 
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject: Satin Finish Reply with quote

Aloha,

As I sit here suffering from 85 degree weather in Hawaii...had a quick trumpet question:

What is the long term wear that you can expect when you have a horn with a satin finish?

I'm familiar with the long term for silver, gold, and raw finishes but have no clue about a satin finish.

Thank you in advance.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what the reasonable expectations are as to long term wear in a satin finish. My concern would be directed more to the restoration of the finish if the horn needs repair. I was considering a satin finish on a horn but my repair tech told me that if any repairs were needed for dings, dents, etc. it was very difficult if not impossible to match the satin finish after the ding/dent was removed. So I went with a polished finish instead.

I have a couple of vintage horns with satin finishes (a Conn 40B and a Conn 48B). Those horns do show wear to the satin finish pretty quickly if the finish comes in contact with something hard (such as a ring). The wear is in the nature of a brighter spot. A satin finish can be reapplied but it typically doesn't match the finish on the rest of the horn. It just sort of camouflages things.

It would be wise to think of a satin finish as being very fragile and very high maintenance compared to a polished finish.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once spoke to someone at Andersen about this, they pretty much confirmed what HERMOKIWI said above.

But that was actual gold, “satin finish” can also be lacquer. I once had Tom Green do this to a Strad, he stripped the existing lacquer, “scratched” the brass and relacquered. I was a bit concerned if this might change how the horn played/sounded, it did not. That finish was the same, regarding wear, upkeep, etc., as standard lacquer over polished brass. The appearance was similar to satin gold finish. Almost, anyway.

Brad
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The type of satin finish can make a difference. If the satin is all done in the lacquer then repairs can be problematic trying to match the finish. If done in the metal without lacquer there is the same issue. Both will be susceptible to wear.

If the satin is in the metal with lacquer over it my guess is that it should wear better.

If repairing I suspect the tech will refinish to the nearest joint, just as they do when repairing a fender on a car.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
The type of satin finish can make a difference. If the satin is all done in the lacquer then repairs can be problematic trying to match the finish. If done in the metal without lacquer there is the same issue. Both will be susceptible to wear.

If the satin is in the metal with lacquer over it my guess is that it should wear better.

If repairing I suspect the tech will refinish to the nearest joint, just as they do when repairing a fender on a car.


The horn I had done was what your second paragraph describes. IMO, wear is really the same in that case as any other lacquer over brass finish.

Brad
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
The type of satin finish can make a difference. If the satin is all done in the lacquer then repairs can be problematic trying to match the finish. If done in the metal without lacquer there is the same issue. Both will be susceptible to wear.

If the satin is in the metal with lacquer over it my guess is that it should wear better.

If repairing I suspect the tech will refinish to the nearest joint, just as they do when repairing a fender on a car.


The horn I had done was what your second paragraph describes. IMO, wear is really the same in that case as any other lacquer over brass finish.

Brad

I wasn’t clear. What I meant to say was the lacquer over satin would wear better than satin lacquer. If the satin finish on metal causes raised points I could see the high spots wearing sooner.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the responses. Appreciate the points when it comes to repair work.

I'm gathering all things being equal, and the horn goes through normal wear and tear, and the user takes good care of it, the satin finish will just get dull over time.
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want scratched brass with the lacquer applied on top like the gorgeous Carol Brass finish. That way it feels perfectly smooth, stays looking great, and wears just like any lacquer horn.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
Thank you for the responses. Appreciate the points when it comes to repair work.

I'm gathering all things being equal, and the horn goes through normal wear and tear, and the user takes good care of it, the satin finish will just get dull over time.

I am guessing, but I suspect it will get shiny over time due to wear, not dull.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It will get shiny rather than dull. A Scotch Brite pad can be used to "restore" the satin finish but matching the original finish by this method is difficult even if you're careful and apply it lightly.

Satin finishes are beautiful when they're new but they're not very serviceable. It's just very difficult to maintain their original look when you play the horn with any frequency. Also, if the finish tarnishes it's more difficult to remove the tarnish and get the finish back to looking new compared to a high polished finish. My two satin finish silver plated trumpets (Conn 40B and Conn 48B) are the most difficult instruments in my collection to get looking like new when they're tarnished. They tend to come out "spotty" or "streaked." A satin finish under lacquer would probably be easier to maintain but there would still be the issue of matching the original finish after a repair.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read on here that it can difficult to get tarnish off satin silver due to the lack of a smooth surface and, also, that polishing will remove the satin effect over time.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two "satin" finishes that I know of: bead-blasting, which is how the old timers did it, and scratch brush, which is largely used today. I believe ASP does bead-blast finishes, but they don't recommend it on old horns. Reason being that an irregular surface allows dirt to get into the "pores" and it's tough to get it clean enough to replate.
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