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agroovin48
Regular Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2014
Posts: 94
Location: Goodyear, Arizona
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 Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you highscreamer for your contribution to this post. Finally someone who has the proper tools to measure the venturi. Isn't it sad that Yamaha seems to think it is so important to protect a simple measurement?
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agroovin48
Alan Cahill
1933 Conn Victor 80A Cornet
King Legend 2070
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| agroovin48 wrote: | | ... Isn't it sad that Yamaha seems to think it is so important to protect a simple measurement? |
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Most likely the dimension is not listed in the specifications because of 'manufacturing variations' that prevent a 0.00x amount of accuracy. If a specific number was specified, it could lead to complaints and returns if the actual size was even slightly different.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Most of my measuring tools are made in Asia.:
Dial calipers, micrometer, depth gauge, and set of adjustable hole gauges.
The Japanese Mitsutoyo brand are the best of the best. |
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
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To ScottA’s measurements, let’s not forget the LA model is based on a LT18072 which comes standard with a 25-O pipe at .351”. So it shouldn’t come as a surprise to those in the know.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
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a.kemp
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008
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Location: NYC
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| agroovin48 wrote: | | Isn't it sad that Yamaha seems to think it is so important to protect a simple measurement? |
Do you think they’re hiding it? Or, that they figure people want to play the trumpet instead of measuring it?
It’s quite free blowing. It’s based off of a free blowing trumpet. It works well with some compression from the mouthpiece. Trying to play a Parke 650-285-24 will likely gas most people. |
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Ozzbo
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Posts: 137
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Some 30 yrs ago I was at Jerry Callet's place looking to trade in some horns. He just received a shipment of his Jazz and Custom horns from Kanstul. Knowing Jerry from my days studying with Carmine Caruso, he confided in me and showed me what tweek he did to each horn from Zig.
Jerry stated that Zig used his "cheaper, but more reliable" custom-class valve set and his version of a Bach 25 leadpipe as well as a graduating bore tuning slide and "dead" thicker gold brass bell section. He had me play one and it was absolutely horrible. He then took it in the back, opening up the venture using a Besson Meha mandrel and asked me to play it again. VOILA...It was a different horn altogether !!! Great big sound with even slots in all registers !!! I offered to buy one at an insane price at the time, but all of that shipment was already spoken for by a Japanese shop/collector which he was personally going there in a week to deliver and give some clinics.
A month after he came back, I purchased 2 of them.
Ozzy Cardona - NYC Freelance |
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Ozzbo wrote: | | Some 30 yrs ago I was at Jerry Callet's place looking to trade in some horns. He just received a shipment of his Jazz and Custom horns from Kanstul. ... |
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Do you recall if those instruments were intended/expected to be in good playable condition when they were received?
From your description I'm guessing that the venturi size was designed to be too small when initially built, so the size could be increased by Callet.
It would be interesting to know if there was a single final venturi size that was always used, or if the size was gradually increased until being play-tested to be be good.
Similar to a tailor ordering trousers with unfinished leg length so they could be adjusted for fit.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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agroovin48
Regular Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2014
Posts: 94
Location: Goodyear, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A.kemp wrote:Do you think they’re hiding it? Or, that they figure people want to play the trumpet instead of measuring it? |
As I stated in a previous post, Yamaha informed me that the dimensions were confidential and that they would not reveal the information.
I was curious about the measurement because of discussions about it without anyone ever revealing what the dimension actually was, only their impressions of it. So, I was quite pleased when highscreamer contributed to the discussion and also when Mr. Becker provided some very interesting information about the basis for the 8335 LA design.
I agree, most of us just want to play the trumpet, but it is also interesting to find out what makes a particular instrument unique.
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agroovin48
Alan Cahill
1933 Conn Victor 80A Cornet
King Legend 2070
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a.kemp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2008
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Location: NYC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for my sarcasm!
I’ve played on many. I really like them!
Most of my work is orchestra. So, I use pretty open mouthpieces. As much as I love the 8335LA, I’m pretty tired after 15 minutes of quintet style playing. I have used it with commercial pieces with much better results. And, the guy who it was created for uses that kind of mouthpiece.
That being said, it’s another excellent choice that Yamaha offers! |
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highscreamer
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Joined: 28 Jun 2013
Posts: 13
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Interesting post about how Jerry modified the venturi. I have done something similar using Votaw's tapered leadpipe mandrel set.
I was interested in comparing the LA leadpipe measurements with other commercial leadpipes. Here it is compared to a 25 leadpipe from a 1974 37 Stradivarius and a 25-O that Bob Reeves put on a 1994 Sterling Silver 43 for Nelson Hatt.
I used dent balls to measure each of the leadpipes at the point where the ball stopped and interpolated the values between points. The chart is normalized to the distance from the venturi.
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Lou Gagliardi
HighScream Brass - highscream.com
HighScream Brass Brio and Dolce Models
Yamaha YTR-8335 LA Bb
1994 Bach Stradivarius 43 Sterling Silver / 25-O
Courtois 154R Flugelhorn
GR Mouthpieces: WB-Classic, WB-Studio-M |
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agroovin48
Regular Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2014
Posts: 94
Location: Goodyear, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Now that is an impressive chart.
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agroovin48
Alan Cahill
1933 Conn Victor 80A Cornet
King Legend 2070
Adams A1V2 |
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Liberty Lips
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 979
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | | To ScottA’s measurements, let’s not forget the LA model is based on a LT18072 which comes standard with a 25-O pipe at .351”. So it shouldn’t come as a surprise to those in the know. |
That's really interesting, since the Kanstul 1600 was also based on a LT18072 with an enlarged venturi. I wonder how much different the two horns really are. |
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Turkle
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
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Location: New York City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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My buddy plays absolutely monstrous, blow the house down lead trumpet on his Yamaha LA horn. He plays a Schilke 14a4a or similar, super shallow and tight.
Seems in a wide open horn like that you want to fine-tune your resistance in the mouthpiece with a nice tight backbore, shallow cup, etc.
Cheers
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jengstrom
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Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 427
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Liberty Lips wrote: | | That's really interesting, since the Kanstul 1600 was also based on a LT18072 with an enlarged venturi. I wonder how much different the two horns really are. |
I owned both. They were similar in some ways but different in others. The Yamaha was a very fine horn. It played well with a high compression mouthpiece. However, I took it to a concert band rehearsal one night and played it with my legit mouthpiece and I thought it would suck my lungs out.
The 1600 had a paper thin bell, which made it the fastest responding horn I ever played - IF I RELAXED ENOUGH. It handled like a sports car, lots and lots of fun. However, if I was tense, that horn just plain shut down. In this regard, it was an excellent pedagogical tool.
I didn't keep the LA very long, but I kept and played the Kanstul for years. I wish I had kept it, but my 72* is a darn good substitute, and it sounds better in orchestra than the Kanstul did while still lighting up in a big band.
John
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Riojazz
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Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I know from the manufacturer that my Shires C trumpet venturi is .351, which they describe as "very open and free blowing".
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Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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