Conn 12a MPC Receiver Identification

[parlez-jj]

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a well loved Conn 12a that has had the receiver replaced at some point in it's life.

Currently playing on a Wick Heritage but not getting along with the rim, or the diameter. Looking to replace it for something more comfy (I don't have access to mouthpieces to just try them but when I plug a Kelly 3C Trumpet bit in it's way easier and more flexible for me.)

Would any of the minds here be able to offer any assistance in helping me identify if the receiver on the horn actually needs the old Conn short shank, or if the new receiver is right for newer bits. It has no serial number but looks more like an 18a bit...

Can post pictures if helpful - or perhaps I can tell by the markings on the Wick?

Further to this - should the receiver have been replaced shoddily how badly is this going to effect intonation?

Thank you in advance!

[nieuwguyski]

If the receiver has been replaced, all bets are off. Measure the gap with the Wick and report back.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[parlez-jj]

Excuse the lamen question, but I was under the impression cornets didn't have a gap.

What should I be measuring?

[nieuwguyski]

Most cornets have a gap, some don't. If the receiver has been replaced there should be a gap, unless the repair tech who replaced it did some heroic work.

The thing is, both my 1921 Conn 10A and 1923 80A have gaps, so I'm not sure Conn was into the no-gap concept.

Stick some sort of gentle probe, like a wood skewer (picture grilled shrimp on a skewer -- that's your probe) down the side of the receiver and feel for a consistent point of resistance, which will be the ridge where the leadpipe starts.

If you find a ridge, you can measure a gap. If you can't, either the receiver is a factory job (and Conn used a no-gap design in the 12A) or a repair tech did some careful work to eliminate the gap on a replacement.

If you can't find a gap and you're convinced the receiver is a replacement, I'll repeat it: All bets are off.

One last thought. There's no reason to replace the receiver on a vintage cornet, unless the original was damaged and you're trying to make it play like new, or if you're trying to adapt it to a new mouthpiece. Conn 18A cornets span the gap between old and new receivers, so that's no help.

One more time: Check for a gap. If you find one, work from there. If not, you're on your own -- try a bunch of different mouthpieces and choose one that works.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[chapahi]

Maybe one of the previous owners had replaced the receiver because he or she didn't want to be restricted to old Conn shank mouthpieces. I had a 12A with a replaced receiver unbeknownst to me until it was pointed out to me by a tech. I had bought a special old-Conn shank mouthpiece from Curry, which is a great mouthpiece, but it didn't work out well and with a standard shank it was a little off too. Finding an original receiver or even getting someone to make one would be worth it so as to play the horn as it was meant to be played. The Conn 12A a beatiful horn.
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Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super

[connicalman]

The 12A is a nice horn. The era of that model is one of Conn cornet mouthpieces with no rim or edge mid-shank. Those pieces are also slightly shorter than the next generation. So the question might come down to this: Were the receivers for all Conn cornets the same in that era? IDK.

Too often a (longer, slimmer taper) Bach or other cornet mpc would be jammed in that era's stouter receiver. The odd person may have wanted to use their trumpet mouthpiece. again, IDK.

When you recreate the blueprint combination, the pitch center and sweetness will be its own reward.

The Conn Loyalist has info on mouthpieces, and perhaps connections specific to your goals. Good luck!
_________________
kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...

[lipshurt]

Many conns have a "no gap situation" including of course the 80a and any pipe that looks vaguely like the 80a/22b with the long tube on the outside and a separate piece that has a seam about 3/8 inch from the end. That is called a three piece leadpipe. On those the end of the leadpipe is flared out to be the size of the end of the shank. There is a separate tapered piece that meets that exact size and blends together. Those two pieces are surrounded by the outer tube which holds it together.

There is no "old receiver" conns. (assuming we are in the "modern era" from 1925 or so on). There is short shank and long shank mouthpieces but they have the same shank size. So that is not the reason you may have a new receiver. The Olds brand did have two shank sizes over the years but not Conn. If your 12a (assuming it not the new york "parlor model pocket cornet) has a new receiver it should have a smooth transition inside. That would not be too hard for someone to make or install a new-old-stock correct conn receiver. It should look like picture on conn loyalist.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[parlez-jj]

nieuwguyski - thanks for the assistance. an incense stick did the trick!

It measured 24mm down - looks like the Wick piece goes right to the ridge...
absolutely at a loss now.

slotting is vague at best. high gets pretty choked up. my concern is ordering a curry conn shank and it not being correct. as i need to play gold plated due to allergy it's an expensive test.

the horn's had many lives before me, i'm not really bothered by trying to obtain an authentic outcome - more just want to horn to play the best it can.

[nieuwguyski]

Stop worrying about the gap for now and simply try a shallower cornet mouthpiece than the Wick. In the era Conn made the 12A (assuming we're not talking about the turn of the 20th-century "parlor cornet") Conn cornet mouthpieces were nothing like a modern Wick.

Since you mentioned a Kelly 3C trumpet mouthpiece, why not try a Kelly 3C cornet mouthpiece? It's cheap, there won't be a problem with any metal allergies, and you'll gain a data point.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[parlez-jj]

A belated update;

Got hold of a plastic Wick 2B!? Seems to have been kitted with some of the plastic Cornets kicking around. Inner diameter on it feels enormous. Far bigger than 1 1/2C.

Horn actually plays so nicely with it but intonation is horrid. Have been put in touch with someone who knows the horn and will get it into him when down his way to take a peek at it and roll from there.

Would be dreamy if the receiver had been switched to normal.

[parlez-jj]

[Andy Cooper]

Looks like the original "receiver" but a later nickle silver receiver insert has been substituted.
Depends on how skillfully this was done. If the insert is cut too short it can give you an unintended gap or double gap. This makes the horn overly sensitive to mouthpiece shank dimensions.

Its similar to the insertion depth problem illustrated in the Conn Loyalist. Scroll down to "Solutions"

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle42.html

Just imagine the problem if the pictured insert does not butt up to the end of the leadpipe but leaves an additional gap.

Take a really good look inside your receiver.

[lipshurt]

Yes it looks like the outer tube is original and the inner insert (the actual receiver) is from the 50’s. It should fit perfectly and not be an issue.
This is a No Gap setup like all of the conn cornets including the 80a which someone here said has a gap setup. (incorrect).

The insert should touch the the end of the lead pipe where it it makes a seamless transition. If you feel any kind of ridge it’s due to the parts either being slightly different diameters (they should match exactly) or the parts not being concentric which will make for a ridge around half of the diameter but not the other half. The end of the lead pipe is flared to meet the exact diameter of the insert. That sometimes is not quite right but not a problem. The flared end of the lead pipe is the Venturi section. With a “gap situation” there is no Venturi section. It’s a much different geometry and they play much different.

Your horn looks correct. The possibility that the insert does not go all the way in (as Andy described) should for sure be checked out. It needs to make contact. Easy to fix. Heat up the insert and slide it out and either trim the very end of the outer tube with a file (easy) or machine the shoulder of the insert (better, and easy but needs a lathe). I bet it’s right already.

BTW it also takes the standard Bach type shank. If you want to try a short shank mouth piece it will still work because the actual shank is the same. Only the length is different and the length difference makes the short shank work better with deep cornet style cups. The long shank works works better with 3c and shallower cups.

I’m not wrong about any of this. There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[lipshurt]

Yes it looks like the outer tube is original and the inner insert (the actual receiver) is from the 50’s. It should fit perfectly and not be an issue.
This is a No Gap setup like all of the conn cornets including the 80a which someone here said has a gap setup. (incorrect).

The insert should touch the the end of the lead pipe where it it makes a seamless transition. If you feel any kind of ridge it’s due to the parts either being slightly different diameters (they should match exactly) or the parts not being concentric which will make for a ridge around half of the diameter but not the other half. The end of the lead pipe is flared to meet the exact diameter of the insert. That sometimes is not quite right but not a problem. The flared end of the lead pipe is the Venturi section. With a “gap situation” there is no Venturi section. It’s a much different geometry and they play much different.

Your horn looks correct. The possibility that the insert does not go all the way in (as Andy described) should for sure be checked out. It needs to make contact. Easy to fix. Heat up the insert and slide it out and either trim the very end of the outer tube with a file (easy) or machine the shoulder of the insert (better, and easy but needs a lathe). I bet it’s right already.

BTW it also takes the standard Bach type shank. If you want to try a short shank mouth piece it will still work because the actual shank is the same. Only the length is different and the length difference makes the short shank work better with deep cornet style cups. The long shank works works better with 3c and shallower cups.

I’m not wrong about any of this. There is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[DoubleEagle]

parlez-jj. You are a lucky fellow indeed. I love my 12A. I have the 1955 version, so it's the last year it was made and has the word Coprion on the receiver. I hope you get your issues worked out. It'll be worth it.
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone