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Development from high F to super G


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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But my understanding is that pitch comes from air velocity through the lips, and tongue level naturally controls air velocity by channeling it.


Your understanding is purely myth. Air velocity through an aperture is simply proportional to the air pressure difference across it. Only increasing the air pressure by blowing effort would cause an increase in the air velocity through the aperture. There is NOTHING that the tongue alone can do to increase air pressure bearing on the aperture while playing. As a matter of fact, extreme arching would introduce significant flow resistance such that, all other things being equal, would reduce the pressure bearing on the aperture and also the velocity through it.


Quote:
I suppose you can channel air velocity by thinning the lips, but that would have limited effect


The aperture size does not determine the velocity through it. (again, the pressure does,)

Quote:
are you guys all on the same wave length that James Morrison / Claude Gordon / Herbert Clarke are fundamentally wrong about trumpet pitch and what makes it work?


They do not understand the mechanics. But very few do. Fortunately, it is not a detriment to playing. By the same token, believing erroneous mechanics does not magically make one a great player either.
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Last edited by kalijah on Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Play a middle staff G with the tongue in the natural ("ahhh") position. Now, without arching/moving the tongue, try to raise the pitch. You can't do it, tongue must rise for pitch to go up ("eeee").


Neither will the pitch change if the lip aperture doesn't. It is indeed difficult to activate the embouchure muscles to ascend without the tongue naturally moving forward, This is a natural coordination.

But that does not mean that the tongue position is somehow the "cause" of the frequency of the note played by some imagined "influence" on the "air velocity" through the aperture.

Air is not required to be "channeled" to the aperture. If you have an aperture at the boundary of a pressurized space, the air will go to it, and flow through it.
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mohrt
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized I had the challenge worded backwards anyways. The challenge is to play a middle G, and then retain that middle G while arcing the tongue up into the “eee” position.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can move the tongue to the EE position and maintain pitch on the G. The tone quality suffers a bit at the extreme arching position.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mohrt,
I have been able to establish to my own satisfaction that changes in tongue position are not required to change pitch.

Try this, press the front part of your tongue up against the roof of the mouth so that the air has to go around the back of your tongue, not over it. Now keep your tongue there and try playing some different notes.

I can play every note from a low F# up to a double C with my tongue in this position.

This proves, at least for me, that tongue position is not what controls the pitch.

Steve
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can also maintain pitch while arching the tongue but the sound quality changes. I don't feel that the tongue arch changes my embouchure at the lips yet the sound quality clearly changes. So, that begs the question: Why does the sound quality change?
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JVL
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently discover that by paying more attention to my tongue forward motion and position, i could make more precise adjustments with my jaw forward motion, and lips alignment. More than adjusting first my jaw, that in turn trained my tongue forward and adjusted my lips alignment.
To give an image, my tongue acts on these parameters like fingers or hands helping to "see" or find things in the dark.

i'm not talking about pressure, pitch etc.
I think one must see if the tongue helps him, as a first action, to train the other necessary actions, or not.
In my case, it makes things easier and more accurate
best
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dclarktrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried the James Stamp method? It has been a huge help in improving my range and my overall playing in general.
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mohrt
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
I can also maintain pitch while arching the tongue but the sound quality changes. I don't feel that the tongue arch changes my embouchure at the lips yet the sound quality clearly changes. So, that begs the question: Why does the sound quality change?


This becomes more apparent with lower notes. Try to hold a C below the staff while arching the tongue.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This becomes more apparent with lower notes. Try to hold a C below the staff while arching the tongue.


The tongue arch and the lips muscle actions are linked functionally. With skill you can move the longue around to a limited degree on low notes without affecting the lip aperture. Extreme movements, especially forward movement, are impossible without concurrently affecting the lip posture.

Also on low C the lip aperture resistance AND the instrument impedance are relatively lowest. Therefore there can be an increased effect due to the variance in oral tract impedance. But even that requires a large change in oral size to be noticeable. Given you can make that change without affecting the aperture, which is difficult.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding pitch, lip movement is primary, and tongue movement is secondary. That's the position I took 20 years ago when I wrote the Balanced Embouchure.

Still, it's surprising how strong the support for this idea is in the current thread. As little as 10 years ago, the idea that lips are primary was regularly denounced by many members here. We were told things like "the tongue is actually arching upwards, you just can't feel it," or "without a tongue you can't change pitch."

Maybe the tongue arch fans are getting tired of defending an untenable position.

Jeff
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe the tongue arch fans are getting tired of defending an untenable position.


Perhaps on TH to some degree. Unfortunately large numbers of players and teachers that I have come across still have wild theories that give the arch full credit for pitch change. Always based on faulty understanding of the mechanics. The fact that some of these are celebrated players seems to contribute to the proliferation of the myth.

In any case, at least in part; your welcome.

Disclaimer: I am not discouraging tongue arch movements while playing if it is helpful.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want a true lesson on everything that goes into playing hi and low invest in an hour or 2 lesson with Bobby Shew. I was a fair player in the 60’s early 70’s and gave it up to chase money, etc. but one of the big reasons is I could not play in the register that Kenton, Rich, Woody lived in, and I had seen the charts and talked to the leads. When I asked them how the achieved that range I got such varied and swears I thought they were trying to prevent me as completion. My instructors who introduced me kind of felt that way also. Then I talked to a Kenton lead who had done woody book as well, I had played with him in regional bands and had interest in me and knew my director very well. He was super good but did it on feel and found it was a coord. Of things, never quite got it. Quit playing 40+ yrs and retired, picked up horn for entertainment. 4 years s of practice and real range for 4 hours topped at hi e, g for 2 hours then lose a note an hour.. no longer looking for a job but want to play as I can. I followed the list and tried everything I thought made sense. Jeff Smileys book brought me to try some things I normally would have and I kept some things, but a 1 hour lesson with Bobby Shew brought so much info and technique to bear I am now a BIG fan. Knowledge backed up by someone who has been a real student for over 50 yrs and can do it all and explain it. If I had found him when I was 16 my life would have been much different. Take a lesson, you won’t be sorry
Most valuable hour in my trumpet life so far. He is not tied to one aspect of playing
Rod
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that if tongue is not crucial in reaching or discovering or developping (whatever word you'd prefer) the high register, it is for owning or mastering it, since you'll need to articulate in this register and not only play high notes.

If for years you were not aware, or neglected a part of the parameters/qualities needed, the day you'll see that your weak points didn't allow you to develop everything to become a good pro, and you start paying more attention to these weak points and overcome the issues, you may think that these are the keys of a high level playing. While it's been for you, and at one point of your developpment, it's only one parameter in the all frame, talking in general rules.

one missing or key parameter for you, will not be the same key parameter for another player. And his hierarchy parameters has individual value in the whole frame.
i think that when answering an OP, we should pay more attention to this, rather than being dogmatic and not suggesting a useful dignostic (supposed we could do it, here)

best
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Take a lesson, you won’t be sorry
Most valuable hour in my trumpet life so far. He is not tied to one aspect of playing
Rod


Rod, I'm be interested in hearing what your major takeways were from Bobby that you feel put you on the right path.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe the tongue arch fans are getting tired of defending an untenable position.


While there is no proof that tongue arch helps, we also need to be clear that there is also no proof that it does not. I once asked one of the leading brass wind embouchure physics experts and his feeling was that the tongue arch probably did help but there were as of yet no confirming experiments. This is from a professor with a PhD in physics whose primary job is researching the physics of wind embouchure.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The arch does help in many cases. And there is a valid reason why. It has nothing to do with physics.

It is the popular junk mechanics explanation, and the discounting of the embouchure itself, that the purveyors of the arch are constantly hawking which Jeff is referring to.
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Darryl Jones

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mdarnton
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://xkcd.com/386/
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
It has nothing to do with physics.


The physics expert I mentioned believes it may have to do with physics.

Quote:
It is the popular junk mechanics explanation, and the discounting of the embouchure itself, that the purveyors of the arch are constantly hawking which Jeff is referring to.


I tend to agree with you on that.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
Rod Haney wrote:
Take a lesson, you won’t be sorry
Most valuable hour in my trumpet life so far. He is not tied to one aspect of playing
Rod


Rod, I'm be interested in hearing what your major takeways were from Bobby that you feel put you on the right path.



Short of it- while going thru his warmup he began going into the why we should do these things. This raised other questions which he answered, then explained why it worked. This went over some things I knew worked but not why they worked, he led me to understand why. A lot of it was leading me to the answer then explaining why. It is very apparent that he believes the face and jaw are primarily responsible for pitch. And explained how pivots work because of jaw action, since I recently had a dental plate changed and now have absolutely even teeth - this is why I contacted him I was lost. I can’t totally explain how I did it but simply being aware of the pivots and that moving jaw up and out would help, it did. All I can say is that he just knew what to tell me about to help me, and has not even seen or heard me play. Can’t wait to get signed up again now that I have specific questions. He is also the only person who has given me a logical way to build strong embouchure strength and it’s hard but it works, I’ll not tell.
Rod
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