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Mouthpieces - do they matter


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AkshayB
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:56 pm    Post subject: Mouthpieces - do they matter Reply with quote

So i just got a 1-1/2 C bach mouthpiece. I have been playing it for a month and i think I sound pretty good on it in the middle range (I actually sound the best in the middle range when I play with it), but it was harder to reach in the upper register, for example an a above the staff. Today, I picked my bach 3C, which I have been playing for a year, and the upper register was coming out more clearly.

My question is, do you think my problem with the upper register with the 1-1/2 C is because I've just been playing it for a month, or is it because of the mouthpiece. I want to know if I should stick with the 3C.

Thanks in advance,
Akshay
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:25 pm    Post subject: Mouthpieces do they matter Reply with quote

Hello,
Mp's matter. The 1.5C is an orchestral mp in my book. It is pretty wide. My facial structure does not want to work with that width. My teeth like the 3C or Schilke14 range, though the 14 is getting close to my limit. I would believe you would have better range on the 3C, but a fuller tone on the 1.5C.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What mouthpiece you play makes a HUGE difference! A 3C is the shallowest C cup Bach makes, and works well for a lot of people. It'd be pretty surprising if your high range were as good on a 1.5C.

Would a basketball team buy all their players size 10 shoes so they play better? Of course not. Likewise, you want to play a good mouthpiece that fits.

How long have you been playing? Do you have a teacher? What makes you think a 3C isn't for you?
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a 1.5C all through high school. No one ever said it was the wrong mouthpiece. I played first trumpet, lead in the jazz band, many hours of drum and bugle corp playing up into the stratosphere range. I got to college and a professor switched me to 1.25C. Kept playing. No issues.

Comeback time thirty years later, that thing feels too big. Now everything is in the 7 range for cornet and trumpet. Quite a bit bigger for french horn. Much bigger for euphonium. Play what you sound best on.
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Orban
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a Yamaha 17B4 (~ Bach 1-1/2 C)

Nice sound... but hard labour.
Mastering this mp needs working every day.
Still hard labour.

Sooner or later switch to 14B4 ( ~ 3C ) is a option.
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Joshua712
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can mouthpieces change things? Sure. Does that mean they matter? Not as much as some think. When you think of the mouthpiece as a causal factor rather than a contributing factor, that’s when things get dicey. When you find yourself thinking things like “I can play high on this mouthpiece but not that one” or “I can sound good on this mouthpiece but not that one” that’s really missing the point. With a healthy approach and attention to fundamentals, basically any mouthpiece can sound great and achieve facility in all registers. At the end of the day, you are the sound....not the horn, not the mouthpiece. You.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While mouthpieces matter hugely, the issue is not that you can play higher, etc. what matters is ease of response, a good sound, acceptable articulation, intonation, etc.

For me, the equivalent of a Bach. 1.5C is fine. For some it is terrible, just like I can’t make sense of a 1 1/4C.

FWIW, I just completed 20 years teaching where ALL kids started on a 1.5C mouthpiece. The number of kids who needed a change was tiny, maybe 3 or 4. The number of kids who eventually moved up or down a size after a few years playing was more, but still surprisingly small, maybe a couple of dozen.

After this very generic and static position, I do believe that with experience AND NEED one can make significant positive differences with the right mouthpiece. I have changed my baroque trumpet setup in the past year, and the result in the Clarino register is astounding. It also made lower parts problematic, so much so that playing principale yesterday meant I needed to find something different to do the part justice.

Everyone is different, but it takes time and effort to work out what works...

Cheers

Andy
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orban wrote:
I play a Yamaha 17B4 (~ Bach 1-1/2 C)

Nice sound... but hard labour.
Mastering this mp needs working every day.
Still hard labour.

Sooner or later switch to 14B4 ( ~ 3C ) is a option.


17B4 is more like a 1-1/4C. You're thinking of a 16C4, per yamaha.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
While mouthpieces matter hugely, the issue is not that you can play higher, etc. what matters is ease of response, a good sound, acceptable articulation, intonation, etc.

For me, the equivalent of a Bach. 1.5C is fine. For some it is terrible, just like I can’t make sense of a 1 1/4C.

FWIW, I just completed 20 years teaching where ALL kids started on a 1.5C mouthpiece. The number of kids who needed a change was tiny, maybe 3 or 4. The number of kids who eventually moved up or down a size after a few years playing was more, but still surprisingly small, maybe a couple of dozen.

After this very generic and static position, I do believe that with experience AND NEED one can make significant positive differences with the right mouthpiece. I have changed my baroque trumpet setup in the past year, and the result in the Clarino register is astounding. It also made lower parts problematic, so much so that playing principale yesterday meant I needed to find something different to do the part justice.

Everyone is different, but it takes time and effort to work out what works...

Cheers

Andy


What type of music do you play. To me a 1.5c is a huge bucket, and why would a school start all players on such a large piece. Curious, I see a lot of orchestral players on these but a very few have anything above a 2 octave range which I was taught was a minimum range.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
What type of music do you play. To me a 1.5c is a huge bucket, and why would a school start all players on such a large piece. Curious, I see a lot of orchestral players on these but a very few have anything above a 2 octave range which I was taught was a minimum range.
Rod

A couple of points:

- First the idea that only a very few orchestral players have a range of anything more than 2 octaves is completely laughable. I'm not sure what the two octaves actually means - but regardless, I know some professional orchestral players and it's completely laughable.

- Secondly, my college trumpet professor though all beginners should start on a 3C. After teaching for about almost 2 decades, I don't think the specific mouthpiece that beginners start on is that important, but if I had to choose one, it might be the 3C (or maybe a Yamaha 11B4).
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choose the ID that facilitates the range you have can produce without strain. Going much larger for perceived bigger sound down low can be a trap as can going smaller to eke out high notes.

Choose the rim shape and cup that provides the best compromise of tone, comfort, accuracy, flexibility,... Again, going to extremes should be avoided until you have adequate experience because there are always compromises that can cost you in the long run.

FWIW I think the Yamaha 11B4 (similar to a Bach 7C) through 14B4 (a bit smaller than a Bach 3C) is a pretty good range of pieces that are likely to work for a good percentage of developing players.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Rod Haney wrote:
What type of music do you play. To me a 1.5c is a huge bucket, and why would a school start all players on such a large piece. Curious, I see a lot of orchestral players on these but a very few have anything above a 2 octave range which I was taught was a minimum range.
Rod

A couple of points:

- First the idea that only a very few orchestral players have a range of anything more than 2 octaves is completely laughable. I'm not sure what the two octaves actually means - but regardless, I know some professional orchestral players and it's completely laughable.

- Secondly, my college trumpet professor though all beginners should start on a 3C. After teaching for about almost 2 decades, I don't think the specific mouthpiece that beginners start on is that important, but if I had to choose one, it might be the 3C (or maybe a Yamaha 11B4).


When I said 2 octaves I meant low f# to hi f, An ex woody Herman and Kenton lead player told me I’d need up to hi a and the dbl. c was extra insurance. This was in 1967 and I hear they write even higher. We had some Woody Herman orig. charts in HS and I simply couldn’t read the notes as I had never seen so many ledger lines below some notes. I only had a hi f so things above that were foreign. I’ve seen 2nd parts to hi e. I admit that I don’t understand the needs or techniques of orchestral playing or understand the attraction but have known a few symphony guys and the best could hit a hi g but he couldn’t play a gig there. Actually IME very few can live there, I’m happy just for short trips. I also know of some principals and seconds can play anything the great lead players can do but they are anything but common. Not saying those guys couldn’t learn it but the principle in the city I live in doesn’t have any anytime hi F# but is a superb technician.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:


When I said 2 octaves I meant low f# to hi f, An ex woody Herman and Kenton lead player told me I’d need up to hi a and the dbl. c was extra insurance. This was in 1967 and I hear they write even higher. We had some Woody Herman orig. charts in HS and I simply couldn’t read the notes as I had never seen so many ledger lines below some notes. I only had a hi f so things above that were foreign. I’ve seen 2nd parts to hi e. I admit that I don’t understand the needs or techniques of orchestral playing or understand the attraction but have known a few symphony guys and the best could hit a hi g but he couldn’t play a gig there. Actually IME very few can live there, I’m happy just for short trips. I also know of some principals and seconds can play anything the great lead players can do but they are anything but common. Not saying those guys couldn’t learn it but the principle in the city I live in doesn’t have any anytime hi F# but is a superb technician.


The lowest note in the standard orchestral repertoire is a low F (three ledger lines below the staff) on Bb trumpet, which happens various places, but in both the Carmen prelude and in Ein Heldenleben, which are two of the most common orchestral excerpts for all chairs, so we can safely say all orchestral players need that note on the bottom.

Mahler 8 goes up to a high F on Bb trumpet (on top of the third ledger line above the staff), which makes exactly three octaves in the range one can expect in standard orchestral repertoire. (Not counting Pops material, or West Side Story, or anything primarily played on piccolo.) Mahler 8 may be uncommon, but Strauss's Eine Alpensinfonie has a couple of very prominent Es, and Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra (which is a very commonly played piece) has a bunch of super prominent Ebs on Bb trumpet in a fast-moving soloistic section. The bottom line? You need 3 reliable, powerful, and well-controlled octaves to play principal in a major orchestra, period, and in order to command that range in performance, most players probably need a comfortable cushion on either side of that range compass.

Whatever you might have meant, it's 100% wrong that orchestral players only need two octaves. Realistically speaking, the principal trumpet in an orchestra is probably the only ensemble chair in trumpet playing that actually will require a player to play a written range of three octaves on anything approaching a regular basis. If anything, it's more likely that lead players only need two usable octaves (albeit a different two octaves).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
Whatever you might have meant, it's 100% wrong that orchestral players only need two octaves. Realistically speaking, the principal trumpet in an orchestra is probably the only ensemble chair in trumpet playing that actually will require a player to play a written range of three octaves on anything approaching a regular basis. If anything, it's more likely that lead players only need two usable octaves (albeit a different two octaves).

What he said.

Also, I've played some in both realms, not professionally (though semi-professionally at times on the classical/orchestral front years ago) and the level of control and precision that a orchestral player, let alone a principal needs across the whole range of the instrument - needing to hit those high notes at any dynamic, at any time - possibly after not playing for many (maybe many many) minutes, with precise articulation... it's a whole different level of playing than playing lead. Playing lead has it's own challenges and difficulties - I'm not saying it's not difficult. It's just different.

Also, the best players can play those upper range notes and NOT sound like a lead trumpet player. I've sat in the room when guys from the SPCO and Minnesota Orchestra have played those high E's and F's and they sound big, open and glorious - there isn't a hint of Maynard or Bill Chase there. They almost don't sound like those notes are that high because they lack that laser lead trumpet quality. I'm sure that some of those guys could play like that if they needed to (if not many). I know that some of those guys can, because I've heard it. It's just not the sound needed for what they were doing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside, my cornet part of Carmen (Kalmus edition) is written in the key of G (or is it Bb minor?) giving the low F written as played F#.

Regards, Stuart.
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JoeLoeffler
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The orchestral parts for Carmen are written for trumpet in Bb and A. The famous low excerpt in the overture is a written low F# for Tpt in A. (F natural on Bb trumpet) The excerpt is, as far as I remember, unison for all trumpet parts.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jens Lindemann’s Mouthpiece Rant

I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.

I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.

We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!

True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job. Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!

By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.

I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.

It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications. Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.

Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players.

So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.

Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.

Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not! The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.

The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!

Jens Lindemann
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There still seem to be so many players who feel there is a linear progression in Bach mouthpiece sizing, which there is not. Apart from using something like Kanstul's mouthpiece scans to compare, there is not much we can do to feel the size changes, due the various shapes of rim.

To me, not playing a Bach all the time (OK, at all...) it's the cup shape which determines things, so I get a sense that the progression of, from roomier and deeper to smaller, is:

5C
1-1/2C
3C

A 7C FEELS smaller as it is noticeably so (and it has such a narrow, sloping outwards rim), just like a Bach 10C or Schilke 24 feel different in size. So to me, a 1.5C seems to be a good compromise that has not resulted in limiting kids' development. Once they get going it is possible to see if they need to move a step either way. It's just my experience, but it does seem rather rare a requirement, especially so when w can always just go and...

practice.

And yes Rod, my range is more than 2 (and 3) octaves and I am primarily an orchestral player.

cheers

Andy
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Bill_Bumps
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpieces - do they matter Reply with quote

AkshayB wrote:
Today, I picked my bach 3C, which I have been playing for a year, and the upper register was coming out more clearly.

My question is, do you think my problem with the upper register with the 1-1/2 C is because I've just been playing it for a month, or is it because of the mouthpiece. I want to know if I should stick with the 3C.


I'm no authority, so take this for whatever you think it's worth.

I normally play a Bach 7C. I tried a 3C for about a month and a half, and thought it was a huge improvement. Then, out of curiosity, I switched back to the 7C and found that I was playing much better in both high and middle registers. I have no idea why.

I am back to the 7C as my standard mouthpiece, but once in a while, I'll play the 3C for a while, especially when my lip is getting limp.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was that very few can live in both extremes for long unless you are very exceptional and efficient and I certainly believe the lower range is easier Most top notch lead players have no problems with low register IME. So the exceptional players of either genre do so because they prefer that music. I’m sure there are many exceptions but I don’t think this kind of efficiency is common. Do you? Admittedly my exposure to symphony pales to big band but it’s just not been my experience. Maybe it’s my definition of having the notes. I can play from low f to dbl c, but I cannot do it reliably frr 4 sets of 45 minutes at volume, hi f is a real struggle on 3rd set but e is ok thruout. So I see my range as f to hi e. I know this not extreme or do I mean it to be, just where I define range.
As far as mp size for students I feel that their mouth and ability to make best sound should determine mp they start with, with changes as structure changes at least until they are schooled enough to determine the sound they want.
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