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1954 Mt. Vernon Bach with 43 pipe??



 
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davenportbix
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Location: Oxford, U.K.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:57 pm    Post subject: 1954 Mt. Vernon Bach with 43 pipe?? Reply with quote

Hi all,

I'm trying to track down some additional info on a Mt. Vernon Strad - 43 bell / 43 pipe - circa 1954 that I picked up recently. Serial number begins 133**

I've emailed conn-selmer a few times but no reply AND that was a few weeks ago. Has anyone ever come across a Mt Vernon with a 43 bell and 43 pipe? It looks original? Perhaps custom order?

I'm keen to discover if it is the case that is a 43/43 - as the leadpipe needs attention (prob replacing) it is, it's a standard 43 Bell but not sure if it should a #25, #7 or #43 leadppipe. Any thoughts most welcome
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1953 Selmer 24B (ML Bore)
1954 Mt. Vernon Bach Strad 43 (ML Bore)
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't worry what leadpipe was put on your horn in 1954. If your intention is to replace the leadpipe, then I would try various leadpipes, and then select the best one to have mounted. Maybe you could buy a few, try them out, and return the ones that you don't want. Even if you were to replace the leadpipe that was originally mounted with the same modern version, chances are it would be different . The receivers were different then as well. Plus you might end up preferring a different pipe.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 43 pipe didn't come around until the early 60's when Bach designed the vindabona model. Your horn would have come from the factory with a 25 pipe.
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sweet-ribs chamberlain
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Mt. Vernon C trumpet serial number 17xxx and the shop card says it has a 43 leadpipe. You might have one. I would reach out to Charlie Melk or Steve Winans and talk about their reproductions of the old pipes.

Sweet-ribs
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1954 was a very dynamic time for Bach design. Bach was building 37s in M bore as well as ML, trying different pipes, and experimenting with what was primarily the last of the classic New York wrap with its Besson inspired tuning slide arc. The leadpipe of a 1954 horn is typically not that of either a 180, or the classic Mt. Vernon short-pipe design, it is typically a late New York period pipe. So, replacement will require expert assistance if authenticity (and intonation) is the goal.

Also, call the contact number for Conn-Selmer 574-522-1675 and ask for the shop card. I have found voice works better than email with them. That will tell you what it was built with.
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1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
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Irving
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to reply to Old School's statement above: ". So, replacement will require expert assistance if authenticity (and intonation) is the goal."

As far as authenticity goes, well, I half agree with Old School. Unless the OP were to obtain an ORIGINAL lead pipe form the period, then I'm afraid that it wouldn't be authentic. It might be an excellent copy. We also don't know if all of the leadpipes of that year were the same, nor do we know what leadpipe was copied, referring to the available replacement leadpipes that are around now. Most importantly, we don't know how a modern copy would work on the OP's horn.

Any replacement should be tried before mounting.Which BTW doesn't tell you how the pipe will play when it is actually mounted, but at least it gives you an idea. If the OP calls Bach, maybe he could ask them if any of their own leadpipes are similar to the leadpipes of the Mt. Vernon period. He could then include that model as an example to try.

I own a 1956 Mt. Vernon, 43 bell, 25 leadpipe. The leadpipe has a long receiver, but the overall length is the same as a modern pipe. I experimented with different pipes but decided not to remove the original pipe, since it is good condition, and because I didn't want to lower the value of the horn in case I decide to sell it.

BTW, I assume that your bell is stamped 43. That doesn't imply that the leadpipe is a 43 as well. These are only part numbers. If it isn't stamped then the leadpipe is probably a 25. The shop card will clarify this.

Whatever the OP decides to do, I wish him luck!
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea about the issues associated with vintage. But I and my top pro teacher really like my contemporary 43/43. He was quite specific about liking how the big 43 pipe balances out the tight bell. When asked he suggested that I probably wouldn't like the horn nearly as much if it had a tighter pipe.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
No idea about the issues associated with vintage. But I and my top pro teacher really like my contemporary 43/43. He was quite specific about liking how the big 43 pipe balances out the tight bell. When asked he suggested that I probably wouldn't like the horn nearly as much if it had a tighter pipe.


I have a classic Mt. Vernon 43 with a 25 (the shortened version) pipe. I love it - but everyone is different.

The OP should recognize that the bell thickness in 1954 was what is "lightweight" today, or lighter still. So the comparison would be a 43* with a 43 pipe.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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rockford
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way to tell what was on the horn when it left the factory is the shop card. In the 13k range the vast majority of trumpets had 25 pipes. The 43 bell was Vincent Bach’s favorite but the 37 was so popular that he didn’t replace it altogether. In that period where he didn’t put the bell numbers on the bell they are often either a 37 or a 43. He didn’t market the difference and they were made in approximately equal numbers. I owned and played my personal 1956 Strad for 30 years assuming it was a 37. Turned out when the shop card came it was a 43. Anyway, my suggestion is, that if you basically like your trumpet don’t mess with it. With all the great custom mouthpieces available it makes a lot more sense to open throats or back bores than to screw up the finish. If you have a dissatisfaction with the instrument it may have nothing to do with the leadpipe. It could be a valve alignment or removal of an internal solder blob or build up crud hiding in there somewhere could be the problem.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockford makes an excellent argument to work with what you already have.

In addition to valve alignment, we can evaluate everything else including measuring for receiver wear, valve seal, removal of perturbations, be it excess solder, burrs, pinched bore cross section. Addressing all the above can render a trumpet into an excellent player. We call this blueprinting and you can read more about this service on our website.

We’re available to provide our free diagnostics and estimates in order to gather much needed information to make your decision whether to proceed.

I hope this is helpful.
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James Becker
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Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d like to add, trumpets from that era will have measurable wear. So if valves leak and mouthpiece engagement is past the minimum threshold it will not play nearly as efficiently as it should. Restoration of valve seal and proper mouthpiece gap can make a world of difference for the better.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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