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Richard III
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 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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I had a private teacher in high school that would put on a record of the CSO doing Mahler. He would say, "Listen to that guy. He can be heard over the entire symphony. Play like that." He was trying to get me to fill the horn with maximum resonance. I went out and bought the album and played it over and over at home. Still never sounded like "that guy." 
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He simply can’t play as loud as Player B. The magnitude in dB in Player A's overtones isn't even close to Player B. Peter Bond says, "If you overblow or harden the lips, the sound will go dead (no projection)". This is clearly what is happening to Player A. |
Then that is a tone production (embouchure function) problem not a blowing effort problem.
Even for players with the best tone quality, the loudness variance is controlled by the air power supplied.
I am not suggesting that the OP not develop his tone quality and efficeincy. But that takes time. That is not something that can be done in an instant to any significant degree.
| Quote: | | "If you overblow or harden the lips, the sound will go dead (no projection)". |
Well which is it? Blowing harder or hardening the lips?
He is introducing a variable that indeed could impair tone and reduce efficiency and loudness.
All things being equal. That is, a good functioning embocuhure approach which produces the best sound regardles of blowing effort. There is only ONE way to increase loudness of tone. And that is to increase the air pressure by blowing effort. And even that effects the increase in the higher harmonic content.
We peciecve the sound. Period. We (hopefully) don't walk around with frequency analyzers and judge sound by such. We can only know if a sound is good if it sounds good. What we determine as pleasing or musically appropriate is an aural skill.
Your orchestra players could drop in a Shilke 13A4a. And then they could REALLy be heard in those "frequencies" that you believe accounts for "better projection". I doubt that the conductors, or the audience, would tolerate it for that kind of music.
Again. Some elements of listener perception are not controlled by the player directly.
It is indeed possible to play with a beautiful sound and not be heard as well if a player, or players, with a bad sound is playing louder. As much as you do not wish to believe that. Sound transmits. Good or bad.
The WRONG (poor tone) collection of overtones can transmit just as well as the right ones.
If it sounds good it IS good.
And if it sounds loud it IS loud.
But "good" is not necessarily loud, and "loud" is not necessarily good.
There is no magic. |
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Steve A
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Joined: 26 May 2006
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Kalijah - all that can be (and no doubt is) literally true, but not all that useful from a standpoint of what everyone (except you, it seems) are trying explain. I think many people have had the experience of hearing a player in an ensemble setting who doesn't sound as loud as their colleagues up close, but at a distance, sounds both sweeter and more powerful than the rest. You can say there is no magic, and I agree, but, even if the attempts at scientific description aren't strictly accurate, they're still describing something that closely matches the experience of many players, and is a critically important aspect of the performance of an accomplished player.
Can you give a better description of what this effect is, or what it's caused by than "projection"? |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think a part of the OP's situation is playing with the horn at a downward angle that causes the sound to get muffled or absorbed. I say this because the OP said the players directly in front think the sound is plenty loud. Maybe just adjusting the seating plan for less forward obstruction would help.
And perhaps 'word choice' might make a difference. Instead of just 'playing louder', perhaps strive to play 'to be heard more distinctly' (because that is the goal, not just db level).
And 'striving to be heard' can have its perils - it means the audience (and everyone else) is more likely to hear any mistakes. But that's the chance - accept the risk for the opportunity of getting a better result.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can you give a better description of what this effect is, or what it's caused by than "projection"? |
As I stated. There are things that affect perception.
The best one can do is to play with the most musical of tone possible REGARDLESS of dynamic or blowing effort.
Also consider that the higher frequencies transmit in a tighter pattern than the lower frequencies. This is the case for any brass instrument.
While you can not have more sound power out than you have air power in. The sound emmited can have some "shape" to the transmission.
This phenomenon also occurs for loudspeakers or other sound sources. Generally the low frequencies are more spherical in transmission (non-directional) and the high frequencies are more planar and transmit in a more conical or even planar pattern. |
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jicetp
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:35 am Post subject: |
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I am the OP.
Thanks for your brainstorming.
Concert was last night.
After the concert, we listened to some of the pieces that were recorded.
I have to say that I played louder after the conductor told me to, and to my (our ) surprise, on the recording, I over-power the first trumpet !
Go figure !!
Now time to recover for the jazz combo tonight !
Thanks
JiCe |
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I just want to say that it is actually really nice and refreshing to see that there are a lot of people here who understand how trumpet playing works. It's about aiming towards the resonance of the note, opening up the sound, listening for the full range of frequencies in the sound of each note, it is NOT about squeezing, muscling, blowing super hard to play loud. Cool to see that this community seems to be on the right track with that because it took me a long time to figure these things out. |
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JVL
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Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| jicetp wrote: | | Quote: | | So what are you playing? |
Sonare trumpet and GR mouthpiece.
Today, I'll try to ' aim ' at the conductor's face, but I admit that my natural posture is more downwards pointing bell so I am not confortable with raising up... |
hello,
i think this is the answer, given by jicetp.
playing louder will probably equal to overblow, and lead to what Peter Bond tells.
i'll add that swollen or hard lips will not vibrate as faster, and fully as supple lips
best |
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Steve A
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | Can you give a better description of what this effect is, or what it's caused by than "projection"? |
As I stated. There are things that affect perception.
The best one can do is to play with the most musical of tone possible REGARDLESS of dynamic or blowing effort.
Also consider that the higher frequencies transmit in a tighter pattern than the lower frequencies. This is the case for any brass instrument.
While you can not have more sound power out than you have air power in. The sound emmited can have some "shape" to the transmission.
This phenomenon also occurs for loudspeakers or other sound sources. Generally the low frequencies are more spherical in transmission (non-directional) and the high frequencies are more planar and transmit in a more conical or even planar pattern. |
So, if I'm understanding you correctly, the issue you have with this term/idea is that, irrespective of whether or not the way people describe different experiences of projection have perceptual validity, the attempts to objectively describe it in terms of overtone content, or overall volume are incorrect, or misunderstandings of those terms. Essentially, that you're not taking issue with the underlying idea, but just with people attempting to frame it in scientific terms. Is that right? |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Make it sound pretty.
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Ed Kennedy
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | I had a private teacher in high school that would put on a record of the CSO doing Mahler. He would say, "Listen to that guy. He can be heard over the entire symphony. Play like that." He was trying to get me to fill the horn with maximum resonance. I went out and bought the album and played it over and over at home. Still never sounded like "that guy." |
There's a solo part in the CSO recording of Hovhaness' Mysterious Mountain where Herseth shimmers softly over the orchestra. That has been my model for soft projection.
Another short solo in the third movement of Mahler 4 that always knocks me out. |
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Essentially, that you're not taking issue with the underlying idea, but just with people attempting to frame it in scientific terms. Is that right? |
Sort of. The fact is: Sound transmits. Good sound, or bad sound, is purely subjective. And neither one transmits better than the other.
Even players that are perfectly tuned can have transmission issues due to interference and comb-filtering etc. And the room acoustics, especially diffusion, is SO important in an acoustic setting.
If you play with a bunch of bad musicians you can't out-"project" them with the "right" overtones.
And players who achieve (subjectively) good sound are usually more skilled at exploiting the resonance and thereby being more efficient. They get more sound power out for the same air power input than an inefficient player. Again, it has to do with the loudness of sound why they can be more audibly clear.
I think the incorrect assumption that those who believe in "projection" make is that they think that two players with same air power input have the same sound power output and the better players sound magically somehow "projects" better due to frequency content or whatever.
The more efficient player sounds louder because they ARE louder for the same input. |
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kgsmith1
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Intonation is critical. Partly because playing in tune with your instrument means more resonance for less effort.
Also, and critically for section playing, in a section like the NY Phil, precise intonation means they get "constructive interference". (not the "destructive interference" resulting from imprecise tuning in the typical ensemble that sounds more noisy than powerful.) When playing in a brass section, listen for resultant tones - if they're not there, the section isn't well tuned, and won't have a resonant sound even if everyone plays loud.
I realize this puts me at odds with a few other commenters but breaking out the tuner every day in individual practice and tuning as a section does mean the section plays louder even though no player is playing louder.
The comment "I overpower the first trumpet" suggests there is an opportunity to improve the section sound by locking into the first player's sound and intonation to create constructive interference instead of just applying more and more effort. This may also make the section more popular with the first player. |
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Intonation is critical. Partly because playing in tune with your instrument means more resonance for less effort. |
I think you mean more "sound" with less effort.
It is also possible to play perfectly in tune with a bad sound. So there is more to it than simply that.
But yes. The resonant center of the instrument tone is the point(s) of greatest acoustic impedance. And therefore allow more efficiency of air power to sound power.
| Quote: | | precise intonation means they get "constructive interference". (not the "destructive interference" resulting from imprecise tuning in the typical ensemble that sounds more noisy than powerful.) |
If there is potential for "constructive interference", due to "perfect" tuning, there is equal potential for "destructive" depending on listening position and room acoustics.
It is the slight difference in frequency (de-tuning), wave shape, phase etc. among various players which contribute to the ensemble effect.
Once again, musical pleasing is one thing, loudness is another. They are not interchangeable as much as you would like to believe that. |
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Seymor B Fudd
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Projection |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | jicetp wrote: | Hello everyone,
Yesterday, the conductor told me he barely hears me, even though my collegues and musicians in front of me thought I played loud.
I guess this is a lack of projection.
How can I overcome this ?
Thanks
JiCe |
If your fellow musicians heard you I would suggest the conductor should go get hearing aids!  |
Haunted by second thoughts I find that I owe you an apology so here it is 
Turns out this was a complicated question. In my brass band , and in the big bands I like to think of a "brass choir" rather than four guys trying to project on an individual basis. Reading the various comments I´m inclined to agree with the following quote(s): " improve the section sound by locking into the first player's sound and intonation to create constructive interference instead of just applying more and more effort. This may also make the section more popular with the first player." by kgsmith1. Also I tend to agree with Kalijah quote "players who achieve (subjectively) good sound are usually more skilled at exploiting the resonance and thereby being more efficient. They get more sound power out for the same air power input than an inefficient player. Again, it has to do with the loudness of sound why they can be more audibly clear. ".
Many times, in sections, there´s more focus on sounding "powerful" at the expense of sounding "great".
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