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New horn out of tune


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Shinybear
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:42 pm    Post subject: New horn out of tune Reply with quote

I got a new horn from my uncle and its a very nice Bach strad. It sounds wonderful. Just the only problem is tends to ride like 30-40 cents sharp. How frowned upon is it to leave my tuning slide another inch out.
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david johnson
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who cares who is frowning? lol You said the sound is wonderful, pull it out and use it. Could you be too tense somewhere when playing?
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david johnson
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who cares who is frowning? lol You said the sound is wonderful, pull it out and use it. Could you be too tense somewhere when playing?
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

30-40 cents?!

If this definitely isn't you, it may be indicative of an issue somewhere - any obvious obstructions (solder blobs)?

If something isn't right then having it sorted will make the thing play better - it's worth having it checked by a serious tech if you're concerned about it.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pull it! play in tune!

You may find a mechanical issue as mentioned earlier.. it may also be a mouthpiece/you combination.. and it may settle a bit as you get used to the instrument.

But yes, I'd have a knowledgable tech or player take a look at it.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be any or all of the above, but one thing to be conscious of is that you may have certain notes that you were humoring on your former horn that is not appropriate on your new horn, and that you may be unconsciously still be doing.

And the reverse is true, that you may not be humoring notes on your new horn that you should be humoring.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
30-40 cents?!

If this definitely isn't you, it may be indicative of an issue somewhere - any obvious obstructions (solder blobs)?

If something isn't right then having it sorted will make the thing play better - it's worth having it checked by a serious tech if you're concerned about it.


Agreed, isn’t that approaching 1/4 step?? Something sounds out of whack to me, horn, mouthpiece, player or some combination of those factors.

Brad
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
TKSop wrote:
30-40 cents?!

If this definitely isn't you, it may be indicative of an issue somewhere - any obvious obstructions (solder blobs)?

If something isn't right then having it sorted will make the thing play better - it's worth having it checked by a serious tech if you're concerned about it.


Agreed, isn’t that approaching 1/4 step?? Something sounds out of whack to me, horn, mouthpiece, player or some combination of those factors.

Brad

100 cents to a half step, so between a 1/8th and a 1/4.

Is this a new trumpet? I don’t know if Bachs were made in high pitch, but that could explain it.

I am curious about the comment suggesting a solder blob. I don’t understand if a solder blob would affect the overall pitch of the machine. My first reaction is that it wouldn’t.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
... I don’t know if Bachs were made in high pitch, but that could explain it.
...

--------------------
edit: from the additional info posted after this, I seem to have gotten it backwards. They indicate that the current standard of A=440 (or 442) is 'low pitch'. That actually clarifies the status of the tuning slide on my euphonium which is W-shaped (longer than the D-shaped slide I've seen pictured on other examples of the same model instrument). My euph tunes to A=440 with just a moderate pull of the slide. It is an early 1900s 3-valve upright bell Buescher.
----------------------------------------------------------------

My understanding is the 'high pitch' is the current A=440.
Low pitch was typical in late 1800's thru early 1900's, with the A being lower frequency.

I read somewhere that Bach trumpets usually need about 0.5 inch (or slightly less) tuning slide pull to achieve A=440. Higher tuning is then possible by using less slide pull.

It might be instructive to have another player adjust the trumpet and mpc for tuning, to see if the results are similar.

Jay
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Last edited by JayKosta on Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JWG
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps Bach has finally started to design their horns to work with modern semi-circular-shaped tuning slides which require up to 2 cm of extra tubing to manufacture the circular arc (compared to the Selmer-era Bach "square"-shaped tuning slides).

When playing a D-shaped or Square-shaped tuning slide you may need to pull out between 0.5-1 cm (or more), because those slides require less tubing to manufacture and cause the pitch to go up compared to the longer semi-circular tuning slides.
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SaxoTrump
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
... I don’t know if Bachs were made in high pitch, but that could explain it.
...

--------------------
My understanding is the 'high pitch' is the current A=440.
...
Jay


Weren't Little Rusty referring to the high/low pitch systems used in the USA (I don't know where else?) before the WWII?
High pitch orchestra horns (I'm actually more aware of the saxes and clarinets) were tuned to something like 458 Hz while Low pitch was around 438 Hz.
High pitch horns were used in some dance bands and maybe(?) military bands.

I'm not sure if trumpets were made in High/Low pitch but if an orchestra used woodwind horns in 458 Hz would it mean their brass section needed horns pitched specifically in High pitch? I doubt a "normal" trumpet could be tuned higher - lower yes, but higher?

I've never seen a trumpet stamped with 'HP' but I've got a Conn Albert clarinet that is 'HP' and it is obviously shorter than its LP brother of the same model when I compare them side by side.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaxoTrump wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
... I don’t know if Bachs were made in high pitch, but that could explain it.
...

--------------------
My understanding is the 'high pitch' is the current A=440.
...
Jay


Weren't Little Rusty referring to the high/low pitch systems used in the USA (I don't know where else?) before the WWII?
High pitch orchestra horns (I'm actually more aware of the saxes and clarinets) were tuned to something like 458 Hz while Low pitch was around 438 Hz.
High pitch horns were used in some dance bands and maybe(?) military bands.

I'm not sure if trumpets were made in High/Low pitch but if an orchestra used woodwind horns in 458 Hz would it mean their brass section needed horns pitched specifically in High pitch? I doubt a "normal" trumpet could be tuned higher - lower yes, but higher?

I've never seen a trumpet stamped with 'HP' but I've got a Conn Albert clarinet that is 'HP' and it is obviously shorter than its LP brother of the same model when I compare them side by side.

According to this article high pitch was 452.5, low pitch was 440. But let’s not get caught up in a debate.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It maybe worth confirming, in this day and age, that it's actually a genuine Strad?
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Pete
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check the valve alignment too.

Pete
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can get the Bb in tune by pulling the slide, then playing it certainly is an option. Just keep in mind that you will need to pull all of the valve crooks too since they will be out of proportion.
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SterlingBell
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 1908Holton New Proportion Model Cornet with two sets of slides, A=458 and A=440. I also have Civil War Cornets in high pitch, A = 458. It is not uncommon to have people find these early 1900 era cornets and discover they are difficult to play in a modern setting. To make things crazier, yesterday I played my natural trumpet in a baroque ensemble, A= 415.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
It maybe worth confirming, in this day and age, that it's actually a genuine Strad?


Perhaps the OP will post pictures of the bell engraving, the back of the valve casings, and a side profile so we can assess.

As for high and low pitch, tuning pitch was all over the map in the 19th century. The Vienna Conference of 1885 was considered something of an outlier when it set tuning pitch for the signatories at A=435 (or Low Pitch). The abundant brass instruments of the late 19th century often came with 2 slide sets, and this continued up until the Treaty of Versailles, which ended WWI, for some reason beyond understanding, incorporated the Vienna Conference by reference, binding the major powers and by extension, all others - making it "international law" (much like how the 12 mile limit and the definition of crimes against humanity has been declared by a minority of states and enforced on all).

Of course, by that time, Low Pitch had come to be more common at A=440-443.

So whenever we tune to A=440 (not 435) we are breaking international law and could be prosecuted at the Hague! Puts some perspective on the actual import of "international Law" . . . .
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
TKSop wrote:
It maybe worth confirming, in this day and age, that it's actually a genuine Strad?


Perhaps the OP will post pictures of the bell engraving, the back of the valve casings, and a side profile so we can assess.


I wouldn't necessarily bet against it... As you say, with pics it'll become very obvious if it's a counterfeit.

When the OP says he was given a "new horn" I took it to mean a new rather than new-to-him horn - unless it's an extremely rare NY Strad I'd be stunned if it was highpitch (to the point I'm not even sure why we're talking about it!).
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShinyBear; Welcome to TrumpetHerald!

If it were me, I had a new horn, and I was pulling it out an inch more than usual for a Bb trumpet, I'd be quite concerned.

I WOULD pull it out and play in tune, but I'd also (as some have suggested) take it to a good brass tech, and I'd also get another Strad to compare it to - and have another Strad player yield his opinion on your trumpet as well. The additional pull is certainly unusual.

Good luck - and let us know what happens, ok?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shinybear,

It looks like you skipped out of your own thread, but I'll ask you one stupid question. I hope it isn't too insulting...

When you are tuning to A-440, are you using 2nd valve to play concert A?
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