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LogsTrumpet
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Joined: 15 Jan 2020
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 Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:33 pm Post subject: Tense/Stiff Lips |
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Hey all,
I’m a first year masters student and lately I have been running into a few issues with my playing that are new to me as of this school year. I am finding that I have been regularly succumbing to a poor balance between lip tension and air, and I find that I default to using too much ‘chops’ making my high register sound forced and thin, as well as my starting pitches slightly up and out of center. I believe this may be due in part to a heavy load I took during my undergrad. By my third year I was playing lead as well as solo chair in Jazz ensemble and principal in both the wind symphony and philharmonic. Additionally, I had a full time position in a symphony orchestra outside of school. I think the strenuous load of playing may have developed overuse and tension that has grown incrementally overtime. Any advice on how to start reversing these effects? |
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| My first instinct would be to think about just doing very very soft practicing 90% of the time since you are in school and constantly doing a lot of demanding playing. Don't let your commitments make it feel like you need to constantly beat your face up. You have to learn how to practice things relaxed and soft and save the full volume for the gig. Even rehearsals, make sure you are playing very relaxed. It's not worth forcing. School can be a little bit too much on a player, especially iif you're doing all the ensembles like you are. I always did jazz band, combo, trumpet ensemble, orchestra, wind ensemble, and gigs outside of school, brass quintet, plus practice every day, etc. I play a lot better now that I'm not in graduate school, lol. |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:43 am Post subject: |
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99% of all trumpet playing problems are a result of problems in the delivery of the air.
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | 99% of all trumpet playing problems are a result of problems in the delivery of the air. |
These are the kinds of unhelpful statements trumpet teachers make, without proposing anything valuable, that frustrate students. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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I definitely see how a constant air flow has an impact on this problem, which is similar to mine. But I feel that there is much more to it, muscular strength, pliable lips, shape/size of aperture, etc.
I agree that it would be much more helpful with suggestions one could use than statements one already knows.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | 99% of all trumpet playing problems are a result of problems in the delivery of the air. |
These are the kinds of unhelpful statements trumpet teachers make, without proposing anything valuable, that frustrate students. |
Couldn't agree more. |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | 99% of all trumpet playing problems are a result of problems in the delivery of the air. |
These are the kinds of unhelpful statements trumpet teachers make, without proposing anything valuable, that frustrate students. |
Ultimately the student needs to figure this out on their own.
For those of you who can't; stop focusing on the lips and focus on a relaxed delivery of the air.
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Jaw04 wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | 99% of all trumpet playing problems are a result of problems in the delivery of the air. |
These are the kinds of unhelpful statements trumpet teachers make, without proposing anything valuable, that frustrate students. |
Ultimately the student needs to figure this out on their own.
For those of you who can't; stop focusing on the lips and focus on a relaxed delivery of the air. |
You're not saying anything helpful
99 percent of car accidents are caused by improper driving. Now go out and drive correctly. |
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Don Herman rev2
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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So propose something helpful instead of attacking other posters...
Air delivery drives the other mechanics. Paying a bit of attention to the airflow whilst focusing on the sound is a tenant of many teachers, such as Arnold Jacobs, Bill Adam, etc.
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PH
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | So propose something helpful instead of attacking other posters...
Air delivery drives the other mechanics. Paying a bit of attention to the airflow whilst focusing on the sound is a tenant of many teachers, such as Arnold Jacobs, Bill Adam, etc. |
This is the most likely path to the OP solving their challenges as described.
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swthiel
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Tense/Stiff Lips |
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| LogsTrumpet wrote: | Hey all,
I’m a first year masters student ... |
Based on this, I assume you're taking lessons with one or more people. If that's the case, have you raised your concerns about your playing with them?
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Jaw04
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| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | So propose something helpful instead of attacking other posters...
Air delivery drives the other mechanics. Paying a bit of attention to the airflow whilst focusing on the sound is a tenant of many teachers, such as Arnold Jacobs, Bill Adam, etc. |
Sorry for attacking other posters, but making generic un-specific statements that everybody knows already is a big problem in trumpet pedagogy. I'm actually the only person in this thread that proposed something helpful. I said practice everything at an extremely low dynamic 90 percent of the time for now, and stay very relaxed.
Focusing on sound and airflow is pretty obvious to anybody who plays the trumpet past middle school, let alone a masters student. The only mechanics that is not related to air flow is fingering the valves. So saying 99 percent of problems are from the delivery of air is like telling somebody who is trying to lose weight "99% of weight gain occurs when they consume more calories than their body needs." It's so unspecific and insults the intelligence of people that are looking for help.
I'm especially triggered by it because I ran into those same statements throughout my trumpet education so many times. And it took me a long time to stop overblowing because of it. When most people hear "focus on your air" they end up blowing more air into the trumpet, which is usually the opposite of what most players should be doing.
Sorry for disturbing the peace. |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | So propose something helpful instead of attacking other posters...
Air delivery drives the other mechanics. Paying a bit of attention to the airflow whilst focusing on the sound is a tenant of many teachers, such as Arnold Jacobs, Bill Adam, etc. |
Sorry for attacking other posters, but making generic un-specific statements that everybody knows already is a big problem in trumpet pedagogy. I'm actually the only person in this thread that proposed something helpful. I said practice everything at an extremely low dynamic 90 percent of the time for now, and stay very relaxed.
Focusing on sound and airflow is pretty obvious to anybody who plays the trumpet past middle school, let alone a masters student. The only mechanics that is not related to air flow is fingering the valves. So saying 99 percent of problems are from the delivery of air is like telling somebody who is trying to lose weight "99% of weight gain occurs when they consume more calories than their body needs." It's so unspecific and insults the intelligence of people that are looking for help.
I'm especially triggered by it because I ran into those same statements throughout my trumpet education so many times. And it took me a long time to stop overblowing because of it. When most people hear "focus on your air" they end up blowing more air into the trumpet, which is usually the opposite of what most players should be doing.
Sorry for disturbing the peace. |
Teaching can be approached in many different ways. One is to simply impart knowledge. Another is to guide the student to discover the "answer" on their own. Of course this places responsibility on the student.
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Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
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Location: Monument, CO
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | Focusing on sound and airflow is pretty obvious to anybody who plays the trumpet past middle school, let alone a masters student. |
Not in my experience. Many people do not realize they are not using proper airflow when playing, leading to numerous playing problems from articulation to intonation to endurance. And, again in my experience which clearly is not yours, most great players and teachers at all levels also emphasize airflow as well as sound.
As for sound, there's a difference in focusing critically upon the sound and striving to match a sound model played by your teacher, fellow players, recording, or just in your mind, versus just getting the notes out.
Sometimes a few words will resonate and guide a player, The "ah-ha!" moment can be spurred by many things and sometimes simple is best.
IME/IMO - Don
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Billy B
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Jaw04 wrote: | | Focusing on sound and airflow is pretty obvious to anybody who plays the trumpet past middle school, let alone a masters student. |
Not in my experience. Many people do not realize they are not using proper airflow when playing, leading to numerous playing problems from articulation to intonation to endurance. And, again in my experience which clearly is not yours, most great players and teachers at all levels also emphasize airflow as well as sound.
As for sound, there's a difference in focusing critically upon the sound and striving to match a sound model played by your teacher, fellow players, recording, or just in your mind, versus just getting the notes out.
Sometimes a few words will resonate and guide a player, The "ah-ha!" moment can be spurred by many things and sometimes simple is best.
IME/IMO - Don |
"Playing the trumpet is very simple, but it's not easy"----William Adam
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kalijah
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:55 am Post subject: |
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Jaw04 wrote:
| Quote: | | Sorry for disturbing the peace. |
Do not appologize. You are RIGHT ON in your comments and suggestions above!
The original poster would do well to accept them. |
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JVL
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:08 am Post subject: |
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To the OP : breathing is very important, but does not do all. Embouchure, lip setting, mpc setting, coordination, practice, mouthpiece ID, rim contour etc. are all parameters involved.
I agree with jaw, przcatice soft, slowly, to ccordinate things, but practice loud also, in all registers, at all velocities, with Colins for instance, with enough rest between sequences. For me, generally practicing a minimum of 5hrs, to 7-8hrs, 30mn of loud practice is enough and good for my lead chair. When i neglect it for too long time and have no rehearsals in big band, i pay the price then...
i'd suggest also have lessons with a Great like Bobby Shew...
best |
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pepperdean
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Always try to balance your practice with your playing obligations. If you're doing a lot of loud, strenuous playing, provide balance with easy, soft practice. If you're playing is soft and easy, don't forget to include some very loud playing in your practice routine.
If you have not done this, you might need help getting back in balance. While I do believe we all find our own way, that can be enhanced by a teacher who prescribes exercises that lead you down the path. Someone who only points out what is wrong is not teaching. You are the student. Find someone to teach you.
Best wishes,
Alan |
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rbeasley
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Joined: 07 Oct 2019
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Jaw04 wrote: | | My first instinct would be to think about just doing very very soft practicing 90% of the time since you are in school and constantly doing a lot of demanding playing. Don't let your commitments make it feel like you need to constantly beat your face up. You have to learn how to practice things relaxed and soft and save the full volume for the gig. Even rehearsals, make sure you are playing very relaxed. It's not worth forcing. School can be a little bit too much on a player, especially iif you're doing all the ensembles like you are. I always did jazz band, combo, trumpet ensemble, orchestra, wind ensemble, and gigs outside of school, brass quintet, plus practice every day, etc. I play a lot better now that I'm not in graduate school, lol. |
I totally agree with quieter playing. Since I made a commitment to playing quieter overall, my endurance, tone, and range have benefited greatly.
As far as tension and poor sound in the upper register, my concept is that the lips need to be relaxed. The firmness of the lips is the result of the strength of your corners. The lips are there to respond to the air. If the lips are tense, your tone will be tense. My philosophy in a nutshell...the corners provide strength, the diaphragm/airflow provide the power, and the center of the lips are relaxed to freely respond to the rest.
Best of luck. The trumpet is a constant journey in self reflection and adjustments.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As far as tension and poor sound in the upper register, my concept is that the lips need to be relaxed. |
The lips need to be relaxed, IF, you are playing a low note or a pedal.
While we do aim to use the smallest lip effort possible for any note. A "relaxed" lip will not produce a higher note.
The "corners" are outside the rim so they have no direct bearing on the pitch played. They are indirectly involved as related to what is required for the lip tension from rim-to-rim in the cup. This immobilization , or tensioning or "firming" of some of the lip, inside the cup, is what determines the pitch played.
| Quote: | | the diaphragm/airflow provide the power, |
Well. The diaphragm is a muscle involved in inhalation. It should be inactive on exhalation.
And, technically air power is not simply air flow, but, air flow x air pressure.
The energy source is the air pressure. And it controls the loudness of tone.
| Quote: | | and the center of the lips are relaxed to freely respond to the rest. |
Relaxed lips will indeed respond, with a low note, usually a pedal. |
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