Development from high F to super G

[kalijah]

[kalijah]

[mohrt]

I just realized I had the challenge worded backwards anyways. The challenge is to play a middle G, and then retain that middle G while arcing the tongue up into the “eee” position.

[kalijah]

I can move the tongue to the EE position and maintain pitch on the G. The tone quality suffers a bit at the extreme arching position.

[SteveDurand]

mohrt,
I have been able to establish to my own satisfaction that changes in tongue position are not required to change pitch.

Try this, press the front part of your tongue up against the roof of the mouth so that the air has to go around the back of your tongue, not over it. Now keep your tongue there and try playing some different notes.

I can play every note from a low F# up to a double C with my tongue in this position.

This proves, at least for me, that tongue position is not what controls the pitch.

Steve

[HERMOKIWI]

I can also maintain pitch while arching the tongue but the sound quality changes. I don't feel that the tongue arch changes my embouchure at the lips yet the sound quality clearly changes. So, that begs the question: Why does the sound quality change?
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[JVL]

I recently discover that by paying more attention to my tongue forward motion and position, i could make more precise adjustments with my jaw forward motion, and lips alignment. More than adjusting first my jaw, that in turn trained my tongue forward and adjusted my lips alignment.
To give an image, my tongue acts on these parameters like fingers or hands helping to "see" or find things in the dark.

i'm not talking about pressure, pitch etc.
I think one must see if the tongue helps him, as a first action, to train the other necessary actions, or not.
In my case, it makes things easier and more accurate
best

[dclarktrumpet]

Have you tried the James Stamp method? It has been a huge help in improving my range and my overall playing in general.

[mohrt]

[kalijah]

[trumpetteacher1]

Regarding pitch, lip movement is primary, and tongue movement is secondary. That's the position I took 20 years ago when I wrote the Balanced Embouchure.

Still, it's surprising how strong the support for this idea is in the current thread. As little as 10 years ago, the idea that lips are primary was regularly denounced by many members here. We were told things like "the tongue is actually arching upwards, you just can't feel it," or "without a tongue you can't change pitch."

Maybe the tongue arch fans are getting tired of defending an untenable position.

Jeff

[kalijah]

[Rod Haney]

If you want a true lesson on everything that goes into playing hi and low invest in an hour or 2 lesson with Bobby Shew. I was a fair player in the 60’s early 70’s and gave it up to chase money, etc. but one of the big reasons is I could not play in the register that Kenton, Rich, Woody lived in, and I had seen the charts and talked to the leads. When I asked them how the achieved that range I got such varied and swears I thought they were trying to prevent me as completion. My instructors who introduced me kind of felt that way also. Then I talked to a Kenton lead who had done woody book as well, I had played with him in regional bands and had interest in me and knew my director very well. He was super good but did it on feel and found it was a coord. Of things, never quite got it. Quit playing 40+ yrs and retired, picked up horn for entertainment. 4 years s of practice and real range for 4 hours topped at hi e, g for 2 hours then lose a note an hour.. no longer looking for a job but want to play as I can. I followed the list and tried everything I thought made sense. Jeff Smileys book brought me to try some things I normally would have and I kept some things, but a 1 hour lesson with Bobby Shew brought so much info and technique to bear I am now a BIG fan. Knowledge backed up by someone who has been a real student for over 50 yrs and can do it all and explain it. If I had found him when I was 16 my life would have been much different. Take a lesson, you won’t be sorry
Most valuable hour in my trumpet life so far. He is not tied to one aspect of playing
Rod

[JVL]

I'd say that if tongue is not crucial in reaching or discovering or developping (whatever word you'd prefer) the high register, it is for owning or mastering it, since you'll need to articulate in this register and not only play high notes.

If for years you were not aware, or neglected a part of the parameters/qualities needed, the day you'll see that your weak points didn't allow you to develop everything to become a good pro, and you start paying more attention to these weak points and overcome the issues, you may think that these are the keys of a high level playing. While it's been for you, and at one point of your developpment, it's only one parameter in the all frame, talking in general rules.

one missing or key parameter for you, will not be the same key parameter for another player. And his hierarchy parameters has individual value in the whole frame.
i think that when answering an OP, we should pay more attention to this, rather than being dogmatic and not suggesting a useful dignostic (supposed we could do it, here)

best

[MF Fan]

[scottfsmith]

[kalijah]

The arch does help in many cases. And there is a valid reason why. It has nothing to do with physics.

It is the popular junk mechanics explanation, and the discounting of the embouchure itself, that the purveyors of the arch are constantly hawking which Jeff is referring to.

[mdarnton]

https://xkcd.com/386/

[scottfsmith]

[Rod Haney]