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so how te deal with that???



 
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connltd
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:42 pm    Post subject: so how te deal with that??? Reply with quote

HY !

How to begin...
I have always been serious with music. Always did practise and belive that with diligence I will make it to the "top".So years past end I am in the same spot for abought 10 years.I ve been playing trumpet for 17 years now. I did have a lots off ups and downs but always problems asking myself "will I be able to play that gig...end checking where on the paper are those places with high notes...so many times I played 4th trumpet to avoid that dreadful feeling...My chops looks perfect to every teacher I had....but inside that lips there where and still are strange feelings...

My practise day :

- BE stuff 1h (Bert told me how to do it!!! cool guy!!!
- Rest 30min
- my "normal" practise: pipe buzzing(from bill adams)+ long tones from g1 up and down till limits
- Rest 20min
-Clark 2 legato and tounge 15min-20min
- Rest 20 min
- slurs(Colin+Schlosberg) 20 min
- Rest 20min
-some eazy clasical etudes 30min(perhaps I play also some lines on mouthpiece because that doesnt go very well:(
- Rest 1h+
-practising jazz licks 30min
-rest20min
-playing with aebersolds 30 min

When I practise there is always this - how to put my mouthpiece on my lips...So preparing lips consciousnessly than put my trumpet on my lips and blow..like "M" closed lips....It is not like beginer student would do...They do it naturally...
So my lips are closed and I hear this is god stuff but they do not want to vibrate with efficiecy...I have this feeling of beeing to closed ans offten the first tone is strange than I think My lips adapt because of the air and I can play.....with limits....sometimes I want to pull my lips apart to have more space but I don't do it...

Anyone with the same problems????
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Jonny Boy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Connltd,

Yes I've been there too and I think 100's have too.

All I can say is YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT YOUR CHOPS WAY TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!
Coming from someone who has been through exactly what you have described I can honestly tell you it won't get any better unless you change your thinking!!!!!!!!
You cannot improve by trying to make it feel right? It has to sound right!
Don't be fooled into thinking that your sound and range will all develop if you just sort out your chops!

Firstly I would forget the BE thing for a while as it is focusing on your chops. I would also forget the mouthpiece buzzing as this can put some tension in your chops. Singing the lines would be better for you I think.

As for mouthpiece placement I would forget about "M". If I do that I can't get any air past them. If I try and keep them open then my sound is rubbish and they feel terrible. What I do is keep them relaxed or loose take a nice big relaxed breath and then blow that air through the sound. The lips go where they need to! I must say at this point, when I sound my best I really don't know what my chops are doing. They do feel good though. If you do have some good days, do not go back the next day trying to make it feel the same as before. Make it sound the same as before. When I say "make it" I don't mean force the sound either, I mean THINK that sound sound 100% of the time.
Use plenty of air but keep it loose (not pushed or forced) and hear a nice bright ringing sound. I used to practice with what I thought was a fat sound. In actual fact it was just tubby or stuffy, had no projection and was just hard work.

It has taken me a few years to really get this concept working because I used to think way too much. Looking back, all the good times where when i was really focused on just sounding good.

You really should take lessons with Mr Adam or one of his many excellent students to learn that sound. I did and I live in England! They can help you far more in person and also work on building your confidence up. You've been playing 17 years so obviously want this. What's a few more to really get things cooking.

Good luck!
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maynard-46
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: so how te deal with that??? Reply with quote

connltd

If I did the routine that you have listed my chopswouldn't be right for DAYS!!!!

If you simply did 30-40 minutes of Carmine Caruso exercises per day you could knock of the (1) BE/1 hr....(2) long tones,buzzing/1 hour +...and (3) Schlossberg/20 minutes. That's more than 2 hours 20 minutes of stuff that I'm sure is taxing your chops WAY too much!!! IMHO, the Caruso stuff covers ALL of that AND MORE . Add in your Clarke stuff...then have fun with your solo literature and jazz stuff! I'll bet your chops will feel 100% better and you'll accomplish your set of goals MUCHquicker!! Learning to play the trumpet is all about MAKING MUSIC...NOT just playing exercises!!! Exercises certainly have their place in practice sessions...BUT...NOT, IMO, at a 3 to 1 ratio! Just my 2 cents!

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connltd
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys for advice.....

Hmmmm so you think I am abusing my chops???I do a lot of rests!!!! I have been practising caruso also but If I do the first two exercises for warm up I am dead for the rest of the day...I need some long expanding tones...this rutine I wrote it is from a guy who was a Bill Adam student(Kyle Gregory...super trumpet player) except for the BE part....


So how is your practise day look like????
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Jonny Boy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are resting as much as you play during the sessions your chops should feel o.k.
Mr Adam talks about putting each foot in a seperate boat, sooner or later you're gonna get in trouble.
I think you need to maybe simplify things a little and stick to one approach. If all these different things were working for you then great, but from what you say, they're not. I would therefore leave the BE and the Caruso and just do the Adam routine that Kyle showed you. But do it focusing on a great trumpet sound (maybe your concept of sound has gone a little astray).
I know that if I get the wrong sound in my head or focus on physical things I quickly end up with everything tight and my chops feeling terrible.
When i'm relaxed (but mentally alert and ready) and hearing a good sound in my mind I make consistent progress and I'm aware that my chops feel good or rather I don't have reason to think about them.
Just keep it simple. Keep the air loose and flowing and really hear that sound! This would all be much easier with a teacher. Believe me! I make so much progress in the weeks that I go to see Mr Adam or get to do routine with his students!
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connltd
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonnyBoy

A question??

What if you have the sound in your head but some notes doesnt sound god....perhaps this is physical problem....I found out just now when I look in the mirror I see teeth marks on my lower lip..and this marks are from the upper teeth....thats also the reason why I think to much....It is possible that this obstruct my lips to vibrate normaly???So that's why I try to also do the BE-jeff smiley because you have one exercice to play your ataks in the upper lip-so I have to bring my jaw forward a little bit to do that and open.....I heard so many teachers say that I should play with straight angleof the trumpet....is that importand???

Thanks guys for the help...
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Jonny Boy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O.k. I really do understand where you are coming from. I used to get marks on the back of my lips and my bottom lip used to creep up behind the top and would practically be pressed against my top teeth. All these kinds of things.
I bet it's really an air thing!!!!!!!
Tension in the breath causes all kinds of problems.
Arnold Jacobs said
"The most common problems I have seen over the last sixty-odd years I have been are with the respiration and the tongue. Surprisingly enough, I rarely find problems with the embouchure. That might sound strange because people come to see me because of problems with their embouchure, but frequently it is the embouchure reacting to a bad set of circumstances and failing --it is simply cause and effect. If we change the cause of the factor, it is easy to clear up the embouchure. The embouchure is not breaking down, it is trying to work under impossible conditions. When we are starving the embouchure for air volume, giving it all sorts of air pressure but not quantity. it cannot work."

Karl Sievers (a great teacher and student of Bill Adam) also really helped me understand a few things. Try taking your mpc out and just blow air down the trumpet. Relax and blow that air through but try and do this almost silently. You shouldn't be blowing hard and this will take very little physical effort. You are now moving air volume without all the compression. Hot wet air!
Relax your lips and let them blow into place. They shouldn't be tight. BUT don't get your head stuck here. You will not make things better by trying to control all of this. You can be aware of it though.
Karl talks also about keeping a silvery tone. There is some good stuff on the Bach Trumpet Corner forum!

As for your trumpet angle that will probably sort itself out once the breath is moving. Just don't grip the trumpet in such away that you arms are locked though.
STOP thinking about your chops, stop looking at them in the mirror, stop worrying about them and forget about your jaw. Just think of blowing them all into place as you start a beautiful silvery tone. This stuff will take it's time to get better so be prepared for them to feel strange for a while. Again if you do have some success with this soon don't try and force the progress by getting all analytical again! You'll just wind up at the beginning again.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

connltd wrote:
JonnyBoy

A question??

What if you have the sound in your head but some notes doesnt sound god

If you are throwing a ball and it doesn't go where you intended what do you do? You pick up the ball and throw it again, and again, and again....until the ball goes where you intended. The muscles involved react to your trial and error and make their own adjustments until it comes out right.

....perhaps this is physical problem....

It is always a physical problem, but the physical is controlled by the mental. So we go to the source of our playing, our brain. Working on physical problems is a shallow, quick fix that rarely yields consistent, lasting results.

I found out just now when I look in the mirror I see teeth marks on my lower lip..and this marks are from the upper teeth....thats also the reason why I think to much....It is possible that this obstruct my lips to vibrate normaly???

The solution is, do not look in the mirror. Really.

So that's why I try to also do the BE-jeff smiley because you have one exercice to play your ataks in the upper lip-so I have to bring my jaw forward a little bit to do that and open.....I heard so many teachers say that I should play with straight angleof the trumpet....is that importand???

I certainly wouldn't advise this approach, but if it works for you, go ahead.

Thanks guys for the help...

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grizzle
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jonny Boy wrote:
Arnold Jacobs said "The most common problems I have seen over the last sixty-odd years I have been are with the respiration and the tongue. Surprisingly enough, I rarely find problems with the embouchure. That might sound strange because people come to see me because of problems with their embouchure, but frequently it is the embouchure reacting to a bad set of circumstances and failing --it is simply cause and effect. If we change the cause of the factor, it is easy to clear up the embouchure. The embouchure is not breaking down, it is trying to work under impossible conditions. When we are starving the embouchure for air volume, giving it all sorts of air pressure but not quantity. it cannot work."


Isn't there something Mr. Adam said, like, "You have to have the engine running before you can adjust the carborator." I'm not an engine guy, so my terms might be around switched, but sounds like the same thing.

He also told me at the end of my first lesson, "Your embouchure is just fine. If anyone tries to move that guy around, you run away as fast as you can."

Don't look in the mirror, don't think about your face, just get the sound.

Just get the comb

That one still cracks me up.
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craigtrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:43 am    Post subject: adam Reply with quote

grizzle wrote:
He also told me at the end of my first lesson, "Your embouchure is just fine. If anyone tries to move that guy around, you run away as fast as you can."


I love it.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that, so long as I start slow, low, and easy, the less I think about mechanics and the more I think about the music, the better I sound and the longer I last.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:30 am    Post subject: Adam approach to 'mechanics' Reply with quote

I know - old thread, but it seemed the most related to my question.

I recently became interested in the 'Adam Method' and did some brief online browsing.
At first it seemed to me that Adam's approach was a simplistic 'just play the notes so they sound good' - and I was sure there is much more TEACHING involved on how to accomplish that.

I found the '1975 ITG Clinic Address' at

http://everythingtrumpet.com/billadam/adam-articles-and-lectures/1975-itg-clinic-address-by-prof-william-a-adam

I have some questions about Adam's approach, and his thinking about mechanics and technical issues. I've 'cherry picked' some sections from that Clinic Address that lead me to believe that Adam was aware and concerned about those issues, and likely had a teaching technique to help his students find solutions.

I'd appreciate your thoughts about these snip-its from clinic address (3 sections) -

--- 1st
" I am convinced that the most workable embouchure is one that has the area behind the mouthpiece in a state of resilience and quite relaxed. At the mouth area outside the corners of the mouth there is firmness, but not a real tightness, and this feels like a warm tension. The trumpet muscles, or the buccinator muscles, are the muscles we utilize when we are getting ready to spit. The muscles should form a passageway for the air to be accelerated through the lips and through the horn. If we can retain the resilience and relaxation of the embouchure, we make it possible for our air to get through the lips and the horn without too many restrictions"
---

--- 2nd
"For example, to play the high register, I feel it is ... .
Nor is it wise to strengthen the mouth tremendously. These practices can lead us into problems with tense air which causes the static area to become tight and can cause the chest and the abdominal wall to get tight."
---

--- 3rd (longish)
" ... but we cannot adjust the embouchure until we have the air flowing through it, until we have the sound. Then any necessary changes, which would help the embouchure, are made after we have the beautiful sound.

There are hundreds of problems that exist with the embouchure; I will discuss one, the easiest one to watch. Some people have a tremendous smile, with their muscles pulled back, as in a smile. It leaves the center of the embouchure without any resilience and without any relaxation. The mouthpiece is pressed against the teeth, and of course, the player would have a very poor sound and a tight range.

There are exercises that we can do to keep our minds off the embouchure. We can have a student play, for example, from G to F without any valves. Ask the student if his facial muscles want to "climb up" or "come in". Playing the notes can solve a problem. We have "adjusted the carburetor while the automobile was running."
---

I am not doubting any portion of that clinic address, I am trying to get a better understanding of Adam's methods that were used with a student who did have trouble with 'mechanics'.

Jay
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"At first it seemed to me that Adam's approach was a simplistic 'just play the notes so they sound good' - and I was sure there is much more TEACHING involved on how to accomplish that."

It is that simple; but it's not easy.

As Steve Jobs told us "You can't connect the dots looking forward you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something: your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever." Or in this case Mr. Adam.

It was only after many years of lessons that Mr. Adam would say anything about the physical and then it was only in the context of me helping a student.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a more specific question, feel free to email me at bbergren1728@gmail.com.
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PH
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I strongly recommend contacting Bill. This is more about process than it is about information.

However, in addition, there is a lot of good info in the sticky posts in this forum. I particularly recommend the one called "The Common Quest" in light of your questions.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
I strongly recommend contacting Bill. This is more about process than it is about information.

However, in addition, there is a lot of good info in the sticky posts in this forum. I particularly recommend the one called "The Common Quest" in light of your questions.

---------------------------------
PH,
thanks for suggesting 'The Common Quest' sticky - I had read it earlier, but missed several points.
These might be especially relevant to my earlier questions -

"In our (Adam & his students) approach to playing, the STUDENT doesn't worry about the embouchure but focuses on a beautiful sound, hearing the music, and keeping the air flowing. However, this does not mean that no one is observing the development of the embouchure. THAT IS THE TEACHER'S RESPONSIBILITY! "

and

"One of the central aspects to Mr. Adam's approach (and one that obviously doesn't translate to a book or the internet) is that he changes each student's playing by changing their sound."

The items that I mentioned from that ITG clinic imply (to me) that Mr. Adam was familiar with many 'technical aspects'. From the info from the 'Common Quest' thread, if a student needed 'technical help', Mr. Adam was able to guide the student in the correct direction to accomplish the needed changes. I get the impression that people who are not personally familiar with Mr. Adam's 'process' fail to realize that there are many aspects of his teaching style.

thanks,
Jay
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