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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 903
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:04 am Post subject: |
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I consider myself rather progressive. However, we are now seeing the results of helicopter parenting and rewarding behavior and performance whether or not it is good, bad, or indifferent. If anyone has any doubt about the ramifications of this, just visit an Apple Store like I did this past Sunday and experience the behavior of the millenials "working" there. They all seem to be engrossed with their iPhones and iPads, oblivious the customers looking for help. When brought to the attention of the manager, also a millenial, the response was basically, "Yeah, I know."
The point is, this kind of political correctness has produced a generation of self-centered, entitled young people. Life unfortunately has its disappointments, and whether it's sports, musical performance, or any other activity, rewarding mediocre, unprepared performances doesn't do anyone any favors. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:08 am Post subject: |
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I've got two "kids" who are the product of the German educational system. Secondary schools are divided into three type schools.
The first, with minimum years, for those kids aimed at entry-level basic jobs.
The second, a year longer and geared towards those intending to go into the trades.
A third, an extra two years, for those heading for university and the professions.
Not as much loss of self-esteem because of the separate groups.
Here's my point. My daughter went directly to the university bound group. No doubt. But my son, because of his lack of self-esteem, worked his way through all the groups. He could've ended his education at any level with a minimum of loss of esteem. (As it turned out, he wound up in university anyway.)
But if he had gone to the university-bound class and had to drop out, it would have been a big loss of his confidence. They don't kiss anybody's butt and yet keep their esteem because of being classed with their own peers. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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In my district most performers are awarded IIs, and the other few get Is. Ive only ever heard of one III. Ones are definitely not just given out, which is refreshing, but a 1 is realistic for students with good ability and understanding. Doesn't have to be perfect. |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1545 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: reality rant |
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maynard-46 wrote: | These decisions that individuals make with young children have MANY ramifications, good AND bad, as they continue in life. IMO...telling them the TRUTH and helping them with their problems is the best course of action for them going forward.
Butch |
Yes! _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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JGulyas Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Apr 2002 Posts: 726 Location: Roanoke, VA
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | It’s just middle school, and it’s about keeping a student interested and enjoying music, I totally get that.
Brad |
I was an adjudicator at the National Trumpet Competition's Middle School division in 1997, and "it's just middle school" holds absolutely zero weight.
When the competition started, a little blonde girl came in and played the Arutiunian right out of the gate. I was floored (and I swear she wasn't much bigger than her trumpet)! From there I heard some Haydns, Hummels, a Goedicke, and a couple more Arutiunians. The bar was set amazingly high, to say the least.
Maybe the adjudicators at your competition were basing their ratings on the the rep played by the player? _________________ All the Best,
John
US Navy Bandsman 1996-2010 (Trumpet; Audio Engineer)
Mpc - Kanstul/Monette B6, Hammond Design custom "JG"
Bb - Yamaha 6335HGSII
C - Eastman ETR530
Picc - NoName Chinese |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:22 am Post subject: |
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JGulyas wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | It’s just middle school, and it’s about keeping a student interested and enjoying music, I totally get that.
Brad |
I was an adjudicator at the National Trumpet Competition's Middle School division in 1997, and "it's just middle school" holds absolutely zero weight.
When the competition started, a little blonde girl came in and played the Arutiunian right out of the gate. I was floored (and I swear she wasn't much bigger than her trumpet)! From there I heard some Haydns, Hummels, a Goedicke, and a couple more Arutiunians. The bar was set amazingly high, to say the least.
Maybe the adjudicators at your competition were basing their ratings on the the rep played by the player? |
Ok, but I’m not sure if we can equate a local middle school solo contest with the national trumpet competition middle school division.
I did get an interesting perspective from a band director here yesterday, we were discussing this. In the case of one particular student, he said it is possible that the judge, not knowing the student’s track record, might have given the benefit of the doubt because he thought the performance was affected by nervousness. It’s possible, but this particular judge also wrote “you are so talented!” on MULTIPLE score sheets.
In the long run, I would probably prefer that a student be “given a break” over receiving a rating that might discourage them enough to lead to a decision to quit, especially when we are dealing with adolescents, who sometimes don’t really begin to “catch on” until high school. But I do believe that present day attitudes regarding kids, that they should never experience any discomfort, results in adults who are not equipped to handle real world life in later years. Forget about trumpet playing, it’s LIFE that they need to be ready for.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Legitbrass Regular Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2002 Posts: 47 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I have to tip my hat to the judge I appeared before as a freshman in HS. Our school had a brass quintet made up of accomplished seniors - and me. We were good and our reputation preceded us, having played many public venues prior to the state instrumental contest. It was customary to perform before the rest of the band in a "dress rehearsal" of-sorts. In our obligatory performance in front of our band, the trombone player was the first to play in the second movement of a canon we were doing. Sharp, light, accurate, legit stuff. After a pregnant pause, he started the movement with this long, sultry, upward glissando to the first note. We finished the piece, but fought the "fart-in-church" suppressed laughter. The band cracked up, of course.
Performance day down state, the room was packed as the other competitors knew we were good. Sure enough, this clown repeated the same stunt. We got the (horrifying) giggles, but still nailed the essential stuff.
The judge didn't say a word. We exited and waited for the score sheet. It was preprinted with Div I, II and III. He had circled III, then crossed it out and handwritten Div IV and had circled that. His only comment was, "Never make a mockery of this music in front of me again."
We probably made that call pretty easy for him. But, the memory separates itself from the dozens of other contests or auditions over the years. |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 233 Location: France
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Legitbrass wrote: | The judge didn't say a word. We exited and waited for the score sheet. It was preprinted with Div I, II and III. He had circled III, then crossed it out and handwritten Div IV and had circled that. His only comment was, "Never make a mockery of this music in front of me again." |
Great point - it's all too easy to forget that the audience is paying to listen to Beethoven or Bach or Schumann, not Joe Bloggs on trombone that day. Applies outside of music too - imagine if when you get a medical test done, the staff are make a joke about, well, anything. Not cool but easy to fall into when you're doing it all the time. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Legitbrass wrote: | I have to tip my hat to the judge I appeared before as a freshman in HS. Our school had a brass quintet made up of accomplished seniors - and me. We were good and our reputation preceded us, having played many public venues prior to the state instrumental contest. It was customary to perform before the rest of the band in a "dress rehearsal" of-sorts. In our obligatory performance in front of our band, the trombone player was the first to play in the second movement of a canon we were doing. Sharp, light, accurate, legit stuff. After a pregnant pause, he started the movement with this long, sultry, upward glissando to the first note. We finished the piece, but fought the "fart-in-church" suppressed laughter. The band cracked up, of course.
Performance day down state, the room was packed as the other competitors knew we were good. Sure enough, this clown repeated the same stunt. We got the (horrifying) giggles, but still nailed the essential stuff.
The judge didn't say a word. We exited and waited for the score sheet. It was preprinted with Div I, II and III. He had circled III, then crossed it out and handwritten Div IV and had circled that. His only comment was, "Never make a mockery of this music in front of me again."
We probably made that call pretty easy for him. But, the memory separates itself from the dozens of other contests or auditions over the years. |
Off topic, but since I started this thread, I’ll take liberties and tell a somewhat similar story:
I was judging a marching band contest in the mid ‘80s. One band in particular was VERY bad, clearly under-rehearsed and / or had not received competent instruction, unlike the majority in that contest. I heard one of my fellow judges, who was quite well respected, say into his cassette tape recorder (it WAS the ‘80’s), “What I see is a group of students here, wandering aimlessly about the field, making random noises.” I doubt that would be tolerated in today’s politically correct society, and it WAS sarcastic, but it was also true. I had worked with this particular judge numerous times, both judging, student teaching a number of years earlier with his high school band and “free lance” instructing, he really was a good guy who was not unkind to kids, generally.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Bachatit Regular Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 57
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Just a short story:
I was a 9th grader in 1974 and worked my tail off for the local solo and ensemble contest. I had a bad performance and I knew it: I received a division III rating. The sting was terrible.
One year later at that same contest I received a division I rating and was told by the adjudicator that I was the best trumpet player of the day (I performed last). Now that really meant something.
I'm not sure what the best take home message is but perhaps it is this: you'll not experience the reward of overcoming a challenge if you don't face a challenge. Thank you Mr. Adjudicator for giving me a well deserved division III rating, you made me a better person and trumpet player. |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 233 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Bachatit wrote: | I'm not sure what the best take home message is but perhaps it is this: you'll not experience the reward of overcoming a challenge if you don't face a challenge. Thank you Mr. Adjudicator for giving me a well deserved division III rating, you made me a better person and trumpet player. |
Thanks that's a great story. I would add only that at some point you'll be told by Someone Important that you're wrong but in your heart you must be able to know if you are actually right. No need to act up, but the real goal is to know right/wrong yourself. You can bet that any name-brand trumpet player has been explained to 100 times what he/she are doing wrong... keep the good and drop the bad, no muss no fuss... a little bit of whining in private is OK |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Bachatit wrote: | Just a short story:
I was a 9th grader in 1974 and worked my tail off for the local solo and ensemble contest. I had a bad performance and I knew it: I received a division III rating. The sting was terrible.
One year later at that same contest I received a division I rating and was told by the adjudicator that I was the best trumpet player of the day (I performed last). Now that really meant something.
I'm not sure what the best take home message is but perhaps it is this: you'll not experience the reward of overcoming a challenge if you don't face a challenge. Thank you Mr. Adjudicator for giving me a well deserved division III rating, you made me a better person and trumpet player. |
I believe this is exactly correct. If kids are rewarded for something they did not deserve or accomplish, it not only gives them a very unrealistic view of life, it also diminishes the value of a real accomplishment.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2052 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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I think what we all say is: you want something, work for it. But we also all say: it is hard to teach the „work“ part because accomplishing something meaningful on trumpet can take years. So I do not advocate giving out pointless awards, but I would think there also needs to be encouragement. Especially if a kid fails he or she may need help getting back on track (adults need encouragement sometimes, too). _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:01 am Post subject: |
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I’ve been a high school director for about 27 years, and nothing has changed over that time. We tell them what they need to get better, don’t sugar coat it, and get right to it. Sometimes harsh if that is what they need, although harsh only works for a VERY limited time.. Never see a bad attitude, and never get any pushback. Same with all the schools and directors that I know, which is a lot.
Kids have not changed either. They were not better back in the day. They’ve been great consistently and if anything the recent ones are more together _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2052 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, getting philosophical here: I am a faculty member at a medium sized university (chemistry, not music) and I recently talked to a colleague from a highly reputed US school about the approach students take on their studies.
My impression is, and was confirmed by my colleague, that students in North America seem to realize that a good education is the ticket to something that can be very rewarding.
Over here, not quite so. Rather, at least where I work, a good education is viewed as a ticket to return to the home town and buy a house. So - I do not sugar coat things and have been told to be too blunt but maybe there are just different approaches or different perceptions to “success”. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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