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When to do Caruso?


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gstump
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caruso story:

My first lesson with Carmine was memorable. He said I did not sound like the studio players in New York on a 2nd line G!. He said there is no reason I could not sound as good as Doc Severinsen on a middle G.

He gave me the 6 notes and assigned them for 20 minutes a day!!!

I came back in 2 weeks and he said....."good, now you sound like a New York studio player on a middle G".

Wow, that was something. I did become a successful studio player. But I really sucked back then. He had no idea what kind of musical talent I had. I could have been a total lizard. He was so positive.
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tomba51
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="gstump"]Caruso story:

He gave me the 6 notes and assigned them for 20 minutes a day!!![/b]

I'm intrigued by your post. I studied with Carmine for a few years in the early 70's, and I also witnessed a lot of lessons he gave to others. I don't remember him telling anyone to do the 6 notes for 20 minutes (although I am aware that there was a famous high note trumpet player in NY who was legendary for playing the entire Caruso routine in one setting. I am embarrassed to admit that I can't remember his name). What did Carmine tell you to do, play the 6 notes for 20 minutes in one setting, or play the 6 notes for 20 minutes resting as needed, or do the 6 notes throughout the day until you had done them for 20 minutes altogether? Thanks.

Tom
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gstump
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Victor Paz. He could play to triple C on 2nds with one (1) setting.



Following the rules I played it 6 or 7 times each day. I still have the manuscript. 1967

I must have been a special case as in a basket case!
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tomba51
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally remembered who was the famous high note trumpet player in NY who was legendary for playing the entire Caruso routine in one setting. It was Victor Paz.

Tom
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember hearing that he played the 6 notes 50 times
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to check this out. Any method book you all would suggest ?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RussellDDixon wrote:
I'd like to check this out. Any method book you all would suggest ?

-----------------------------
Not a method book, but a thorough review of Caruso / Laurie Frink approach, and it contains examples of practice material.

https://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/oa_dissertations/1383

Jay
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gstump
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caruso Method
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cpedersen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:25 am    Post subject: Laurie Frink Method of Trumpet Instruction paper... Reply with quote

I've always had a small problem with the paper linked above. In it, the author claims on p. 56 that the bend study seems to have been created by Laurie Frink - when I'm not so sure it's the case.

As far as I can tell, it's a modified and extended version of the Stamp bend exercise found on page 23 of the Stamp book. (If memory serves, we talked in lessons about it being a Stamp exercise in lessons, although my brain could be making that up to justify the point). I've talked to other players who seem to agree it was a Stamp exercise too.

The part that I struggle with is that as scholarly paper the author did a literature review of trumpet methods, including Stamp's - yet doesn't even mention that they're similar. Nor did the overseeing profs flag it.

Does it change the usefulness of the bend exercise? Not at all - especially because James Stamp and Laurie Frink approached the bend a bit differently (Stamp favouring a fast bend, and Laurie a slow one).

But, it makes it hard for me to put stock in the conclusions drawn in the paper when what seems like a glaring error in the attention to detail so early on in the paper.

Does anyone else have an opinion of this?
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Laurie Frink Method of Trumpet Instruction paper... Reply with quote

cpedersen wrote:
I've always had a small problem with the paper linked above. In it, the author claims on p. 56 that the bend study seems to have been created by Laurie Frink - when I'm not so sure it's the case.

As far as I can tell, it's a modified and extended version of the Stamp bend exercise found on page 23 of the Stamp book. (If memory serves, we talked in lessons about it being a Stamp exercise in lessons, although my brain could be making that up to justify the point). I've talked to other players who seem to agree it was a Stamp exercise too.

The part that I struggle with is that as scholarly paper the author did a literature review of trumpet methods, including Stamp's - yet doesn't even mention that they're similar. Nor did the overseeing profs flag it.

Does it change the usefulness of the bend exercise? Not at all - especially because James Stamp and Laurie Frink approached the bend a bit differently (Stamp favouring a fast bend, and Laurie a slow one).

But, it makes it hard for me to put stock in the conclusions drawn in the paper when what seems like a glaring error in the attention to detail so early on in the paper.

Does anyone else have an opinion of this?


Perhaps you could share your dissertation and we can compare the two?
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cpedersen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I follow your comment.

I don't have a dissertation. I don't need one to have questions about the paper, nor to notice errors in it.

My assertion is that it's an academic paper that appears to have a mistake in it, which makes me wonder whether or not there are other errors in areas that I don't have as much knowledge about.

Twice in this thread I saw the paper brought up, and so I figured why not bring it up?
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Laurie Frink Method of Trumpet Instruction paper... Reply with quote

cpedersen wrote:
I've always had a small problem with the paper linked above. In it, the author claims on p. 56 that the bend study seems to have been created by Laurie Frink - when I'm not so sure it's the case.

As far as I can tell, it's a modified and extended version of the Stamp bend exercise found on page 23 of the Stamp book. (If memory serves, we talked in lessons about it being a Stamp exercise in lessons, although my brain could be making that up to justify the point). I've talked to other players who seem to agree it was a Stamp exercise too.

The part that I struggle with is that as scholarly paper the author did a literature review of trumpet methods, including Stamp's - yet doesn't even mention that they're similar. Nor did the overseeing profs flag it.

Does it change the usefulness of the bend exercise? Not at all - especially because James Stamp and Laurie Frink approached the bend a bit differently (Stamp favouring a fast bend, and Laurie a slow one).

But, it makes it hard for me to put stock in the conclusions drawn in the paper when what seems like a glaring error in the attention to detail so early on in the paper.

Does anyone else have an opinion of this?


Carmine was using very specific bending exercises in the early 70s for certain students. Which would have been before Laurie. I would be surprised that he invented the exercise but his application of it I'm sure is unique, as it is with pedals, for example. He didn't always use free buzzing in his bending exercises. Sometimes it was mpc buzzing followed by bending on the horn. He also taught the bending exercise to me as one that should be played in time. Not slowly. Right in time with the foot tapping.

I never heard him say to "never do" something.

I don't have a burning desire to fact check this whole essay myself, since I studied with the man and know what his story is, but I will be happy to comment on any other pages you want to bring up. My guess is that if p.56 is typical, there are likely many other mischaracterizations and misleading statements that could corrected.

There are more things wrong with p.56 than just the bending statement. For example, he never seemed to have any use for a warm up. Just start playing right out of the box. But he did say once that Victor Paz would use the Six Notes and the Seconds as a warm up. So, naturally that became my warm up for a long time.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Laurie Frink Method of Trumpet Instruction paper... Reply with quote

cpedersen wrote:
I've always had a small problem with the paper linked above. In it, the author claims on p. 56 that the bend study seems to have been created by Laurie Frink - when I'm not so sure it's the case. ...
Does anyone else have an opinion of this?

-----------------------------------
Is this the section you're asking about -
begin quoted section -

These findings indicate that buzzing was an exercise that Laurie Frink developed
while she was a student with Carmine Caruso. She is documented as passing this exercise
along to Julie Landsman in 1984 during a lesson with Caruso.144 This exercise can be
considered to be a warm-up and fundamentals exercise because of the simple range and
scope of the drills. This is corroborated by the Stamp and Thompson methods where both
pedagogues indicated that buzzing is of a preparatory nature.

end quoted section -

It might be a simple 'word choice' understanding issue - the paper says 'developed', not 'invented' / 'discovered' / or 'created'. So the author might have been thinking in terms of Frink having taken an existing routine and changed (developed) it in her own fashion.

Jay
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cpedersen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

specifically I was thinking about the paragraph following figure 4.2:

"The bend study is an exercise that appears to have been created by Laurie Frink."

TrpPro: with me, Laurie advocated a bend that was slow and smooth to work out any gaps. However, I have a feeling that if she hadn't passed away and our lessons had continued, she would have eventually said to try the other way for a while. One of the things that I appreciated about her approach was that there was no dogma or end approach in mind, just as has been mentioned, cause and effect. (I had also over heard a prominent American principal trumpet player and Stamp student/advocate proclaim that playing them slow was "just wrong".)

In my last lesson with her, I hadn't seen her for about a year (I lived quite far from NY), so I had modified and changed my exercises every 4-8 weeks based on what appeared to be the logic of the way she had instructed me. When I arrived at the lesson I share with her how I had worked on and changed the material, and asked if I had understood that aspect of her approach. Fortunately, she gave me the affirmative. She passed away shortly thereafter, and I'm extraordinarily grateful to have received that final bit of direction. It has kept me going since.
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