Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:36 am Post subject: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing lip ?
I don't know why, but I have always had an embouchure in which my lower lip is the primary lip that controls everything.
I set the mouthpiece on my lower lip and I control everything about the air stream with my lower lip. in fact, often I'm not even aware of what my upper lip is doing.
Over the years I have studied with some well credentialed teachers (a few known on this site) who have advised me that my upper lip should be the buzzing lip, or that as a minimum both lips should be buzzing. I have struggled with that and had some periods where my playing was dismal while I tried to make the change.
I've just recently suffered through a low period trying to change, and after switching back to my old embouchure I am playing like my old self again.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
TiredChops wrote:
...
I've just recently suffered through a low period trying to change, and after switching back to my old embouchure I am playing like my old self again.
So I'm curious, how unusual is my setup ?
---------------------------------
What you describe is quite unusual. But if it works and you are satisfied with 'playing like my old self again', then why change?
If you feel that something about your embouchure style is inhibiting wanted improvement, then maybe a change is needed.
The basic fact about lip usage is that 'the lip has to be able to vibrate in a way that produces the desired pitch'. If the lip is tensed / stretched / compressed so much that it CAN'T vibrate, then no pitch can be produced.
And you must be able to produce air flow thru the lip aperture to cause vibrations to happen.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 12 Aug 2019 Posts: 24 Location: London, GB
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:01 am Post subject:
Interesting. I have often worried about this.
My top lip is vibrating, and (this is related) my corners move, but I'm not making them, since when I try everything shuts off. I have never, ever, had any success doing the things you are meant to with corners, despite years of trying different approaches.
I think about tongue level. But even that only works well when my lower lip is engaged - not moving, just engaged. I think of it as connecting an electrical circuit. I can hear the fizz in the sound when it's there, slightly flexed, and I can hear when it isn't. I don't think about buzz but I guess that's the same thing. Try and do the same flex from the sides - it dies.
I get problems from the other side when things sound a bit dull and I overdo the lower lip, but that's the trumpet for you.
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
JayKosta wrote:
If you feel that something about your embouchure style is inhibiting wanted improvement, then maybe a change is needed.
Jay
If I were to evaluate my playing I would say that I have a very nice tone (I receive many complements to that effect), I have pretty good endurance, but my range is stuck at a D or maybe an E over high C. No matter what I try I just can't seem to get over that hurtle.
So, I've always wondered if it's my embouchure that is causing the problem, and when I seek advice from a teacher most of them don't like my setup.
Thus the reason that I wanted to know if others played the same way I do.
“It takes 200 muscles to make a sound on the trumpet.” The more you try to control them, the more you fight the process. “An embouchure is something you develop, not something you form.” “It’s a wind instrument, not a lip instrument.” Don’t focus on your lips, focus on your sound. _________________ Kevin
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:27 am Post subject:
What you are describing is an upstream embouchure type. It isn't terribly common, but it's nothing to be overly concerned about.
Teachers who tell you you have a faulty embouchure simply because you play upstream are being dogmatic. There is nothing wrong with being an upstream player if your setup is working.
Check out the Reinhardt forum. Doc Reinhardt classified many embouchure types and the folks on that forum can help you get squared away and perhaps give some tips on how to further improve as a player. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
TiredChops wrote:
Over the years I have studied with some well credentialed teachers (a few known on this site) who have advised me that my upper lip should be the buzzing lip, or that as a minimum both lips should be buzzing. I have struggled with that and had some periods where my playing was dismal while I tried to make the change.
Try not buzzing.
These are the videos to watch to kill the buzzing myth:
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
Bwat wrote:
TiredChops wrote:
Over the years I have studied with some well credentialed teachers (a few known on this site) who have advised me that my upper lip should be the buzzing lip, or that as a minimum both lips should be buzzing. I have struggled with that and had some periods where my playing was dismal while I tried to make the change.
Try not buzzing.
These are the videos to watch to kill the buzzing myth:
This isn't the point of his post nor will such an exercise be beneficial on sorting out whether or not the top or bottom lip should be the primary vibrating lip. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
Tpt_Guy wrote:
Bwat wrote:
TiredChops wrote:
Over the years I have studied with some well credentialed teachers (a few known on this site) who have advised me that my upper lip should be the buzzing lip, or that as a minimum both lips should be buzzing. I have struggled with that and had some periods where my playing was dismal while I tried to make the change.
Try not buzzing.
These are the videos to watch to kill the buzzing myth:
This isn't the point of his post nor will such an exercise be beneficial on sorting out whether or not the top or bottom lip should be the primary vibrating lip.
The lip buzzing options you’ve listed are not exhaustive. That was the point of my post.
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
Bwat wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
This isn't the point of his post nor will such an exercise be beneficial on sorting out whether or not the top or bottom lip should be the primary vibrating lip.
The lip buzzing options you’ve listed are not exhaustive. That was the point of my post.
I didn't list any.
He asked if anyone has the bottom as opposed to the top as the primary vibrating lip (he said "buzzing", but we get it), because teachers have told him it should be the top and he has tried to change with no success.
I simply pointed him to the Reinhardt forum where he can gain an understanding of embouchure types and learn that it isn't always the top lip that is the primary vibrating lip.
Posting videos that claim the lips don't buzz when we play isn't a solution and depending on a player's development and level of understanding can be confusing. We don't need to make them buzz, but they do vibrate when we play, otherwise we would only hear the sound of rushing air from the bell. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
The lower lip doing the buzzing seems very unusual to me. What does the upper lip do in this situation? Does being "upstream" really mean that the lower lip is doing the buzzing? Is that Reinhardt's conclusion of what's happening in "upstream" situations? I didn't think so but maybe I'm wrong about this. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
Tpt_Guy wrote:
Bwat wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
This isn't the point of his post nor will such an exercise be beneficial on sorting out whether or not the top or bottom lip should be the primary vibrating lip.
The lip buzzing options you’ve listed are not exhaustive. That was the point of my post.
I didn't list any.
You did, and I quoted it.
Tpt_Guy wrote:
Posting videos that claim the lips don't buzz when we play isn't a solution and depending on a player's development and level of understanding can be confusing.
It's not my position to decide if the original poster is of the required development or understanding (whatever that means) to handle scientifically accepted truth.
I'm not sure it's your position to admonish those who propagate such knowledge.
What you are describing is an upstream embouchure type. It isn't terribly common, but it's nothing to be overly concerned about.
Teachers who tell you you have a faulty embouchure simply because you play upstream are being dogmatic. There is nothing wrong with being an upstream player if your setup is working.
Check out the Reinhardt forum. Doc Reinhardt classified many embouchure types and the folks on that forum can help you get squared away and perhaps give some tips on how to further improve as a player.
It does seem like the OP's embouchure setup is upstream, and yes, an upstream embouchure is a legitimate setup. It is not always limited to a person with an underbite, although there is often a physiological correlation between such having more success as an upstream player. Doc Reinhardt's study in the area of "upstream brass playing" is where you will probably find the most written about it. I have witnessed pros that have this setup and have incredible chop ability, which I attribute to the extra padding from the lower lip allowing for more abuse. Over the past year, I have actually developed a setup that may be upstream and feel like my chops are stronger than ever with a lot more power in the upper register. I know of those that have switched from the more traditional downstream to upstream approach and found notable success, trombonist Dave Wilken being one of them. You can find his extended research and study in the areas of embouchure and the Reinhardt Method on his website:
Dave Wilken has done studies on pro brass players for years, and on his website, he often asks for others to guess what embouchure type they are witnessing from videos he posts. Rich Willey is Moderator on TrumpetHerald for the Donald S. Reinhardt approach. Much to be learned here for those who are unfamiliar.
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
Bwat wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
I didn't list any.
You did, and I quoted it.
Actually, those two were listed by the OP. I was simply addressing them only and avoiding putting further confusion into the issue.
Bwat wrote:
It's not my position to decide if the original poster is of the required development or understanding (whatever that means) to handle scientifically accepted truth.
I'm not sure it's your position to admonish those who propagate such knowledge.
I will concede that the use of the word "development" was not a wise choice. Perhaps I should have chosen "understanding." That said, there are several things listed that point out confusion and lack of solid understanding.
Let's have a look at them.
Quote:
I don't know why, but I have always had an embouchure in which my lower lip is the primary lip that controls everything.
Hmmm...
Quote:
Over the years I have studied with some well credentialed teachers (a few known on this site) who have advised me that my upper lip should be the buzzing lip, or that as a minimum both lips should be buzzing.
Confused "teachers" passing off poor advice.
Let's continue.
Quote:
I've just recently suffered through a low period trying to change, and after switching back to my old embouchure I am playing like my old self again.
And now he wants to know...
Quote:
So I'm curious, how unusual is my setup ?
What he is "supposed to be doing" isn't working. He has been confused by poor instruction and wants to sort it out.
Also, I must apologize for coming across as admonishing. It wasn't my intention. But I do feel that we owe it to each other to speak up if we see what we feel is poor advice.
I rarely do it anymore, but sometimes if someone wants to know ABC and someone else answers with Z, I point it out. I don't see that telling the OP not to buzz and posting videos to "kill the buzzing myth" does anything to help sort out if his embouchure setup is unusual or not.
There is validity to your point about the buzzing myth; however, my position on it is that it isn't really related to his question of how unusual his setup is. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 am Post subject:
dstpt wrote:
It does seem like the OP's embouchure setup is upstream, and yes, an upstream embouchure is a legitimate setup. It is not always limited to those with an underbite, although there is often a physiological correlation between those with an underbite having more success as an upstream player. Doc Reinhardt's study in the area of "upstream brass playing" is where you will probably find the most written about it. I have witnessed pros that have this setup and have incredible chop ability, which I recon is attributed to the extra padding from the lower lip allowing for more abuse. Over the past year, I have actually developed a setup that "may be" upstream and feel like my chops are stronger than ever with a lot more power in the upper register. I know of those that have switched from the more traditional downstream to upstream approach and found notable success, trombonist Dave Wilken being one of them. You can find his extended research and study in the areas of embouchure and the Reinhardt Method on his website:
Dave Wilken has done studies on pro brass players for years, asking for others to guess what embouchure type they are witnessing from videos he posts. Rich Willey is Moderator on TrumpetHerald for the Donald S. Reinhardt approach. Much to be learned here for those who are unfamiliar.
When I would play lead in HS, I would use less upper lip instinctively....the higher range the part, the less upper lip would be in the mouthpiece. My range back then was a solid G above high C.
While in concert bands or orchestras, I would be 50/50. My teacher Bryan Goff (Florida State), didn't have a particular issue with it.
Joined: 08 Feb 2004 Posts: 1455 Location: Metropolitan Opera
Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:41 am Post subject:
Food for thought.
I’ve actually studied this a bit.
I doubt that one can say their bottom lip is the primary buzzing lip with accuracy or certainty (I’ve never heard of such a thing), but in many cases the bottom lip DOES NOT vibrate.
The majority of players have an overlapping embouchure of one sort or another; top lip in front of the bottom lip, and/or bottom lip rolled slightly over the bottom teeth. This is common because most of us have an overbite (the trumpet angle may be straight or falling). In this situation, mouthpiece pressure and/or jamming the lips together competes with wind power, which in turn is needed to blow an aperture open to create a sound. It’s a kind of battle, and the top lip and teeth often take a lot of punishment).
The tone may be ok, but is never a clear, vibrant, ringing one, because only the top lip vibrates. High or loud playing requires great effort, and soft playing is something of a gamble.
I confirmed this in experiments with a laryngeal surgeon (and accomplished trumpet player). He had drilled a hole in a mouthpiece at a 45 degree angle to admit a fiber optic camera (the kind used to examine vocal cords). The image was displayed on a screen and synced with the frequency so the vibrations could be seen in slow motion.
With my chops overlapping as described above, the top lip could be seen vibrating, but the bottom was motionless. The tone was acceptable (I played like this for 20 years, with moderate success), but it was nothing special.
I then “tweaked” my emb. by setting the mouthpiece a little higher or more “into” the bottom lip, drawing or pulling it out of the mouthpiece (very slightly), and creating a aperture that didn’t need to be forced open, and exposing the vibrating surface inside my bottom lip.
Playing in this manner, the camera showed both lips vibrating equally, and the tone was much richer, more colorful, and more easily produced.
Back to the OP; playing like this may feel as if only the bottom lip is vibrating (which is unlikely). It may also be perceived as playing ”upstream,” but that May be more perception than reality..
Bringing the jaw forward to create a more even support for the top & bottom lip can help accomplish this, as can setting the mouthpiece slightly (like, a millimeter) higher on the bottom lip.
Assorted methods try to achieve this; Cat Anderson’s (in)famous 20 minute G (properly done with front teeth touching to prevent rolling lip over teeth) is one example (see Geoff Winstead’s book on this).
In his book, Roger Ingram likens it to the old “einsetzen” technique used by horn players. Ingram’s context is describing how some lead players can get such dynamic power on little tiny mouthpieces; you have to get the “meat” out of the mouthpiece and create a large aperture. It also exposes and brings into play the lower lip: second of our two “reeds.”
The upshot is most players have too much tissue (often bottom lip) jammed into their mouthpiece so sound must be forced out with wind power. Smaller mouthpieces are less forgiving of this, hence many young players talking about the mouthpiece “backing up” on them or “bottoming out.”
Experimenting in this direction can help both commercial and “classical” trumpeters.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Anyone else use their lower lip as the primary buzzing l
"TiredChops," in order for any of us to really offer advice it would be necessary to watch you play. If you can take video of your embouchure, I might be able to spot something that could be useful for you to work on. Based on written description alone, it's just taking educated guesses. Many brass teachers make assumptions for all players based on how they think they play, so it sounds like you're getting some conflicting advice. If you're trying to make your embouchure work in a way that goes against your anatomy you'll be working harder than you need to.
TiredChops wrote:
I don't know why, but I have always had an embouchure in which my lower lip is the primary lip that controls everything.
I set the mouthpiece on my lower lip and I control everything about the air stream with my lower lip. in fact, often I'm not even aware of what my upper lip is doing.
So I'm curious, how unusual is my setup ?
It depends on what you mean by setting the mouthpiece on your lower lip. Do you mean that the lower lip gets more rim contact and the mouthpiece is placed closer to the nose?
The top photo is a "downstream" embouchure type. Brass musicians who have the anatomical features that make this sort of embouchure type (more upper lip inside the mouthpiece) are more common. The mouthpiece placement won't always be so extreme, it can look almost like 50/50 from the outside, but the upper lip will predominate inside the mouthpiece.
The lower photo shows an "upstream" embouchure. Players who have the anatomical features that make this work best for them are less common than downstream players - which is why a lot of brass teachers discourage it. Their (incorrect) rational is that because they aren't able to play with a low mouthpiece placement that it must be wrong for everyone. My best guess is maybe 10%-15% of brass musicians have the anatomical features that make the "low placement" embouchure type work best for them.
Peter Bond wrote:
Food for thought.
I’ve actually studied this a bit.
I doubt that one can say their bottom lip is the primary buzzing lip with accuracy or certainty (I’ve never heard of such a thing), but in many cases the bottom lip DOES NOT vibrate.
Both lips do appear to vibrate for all players, but it is true that the predominant lip will vibrate with more intensity that the lip that gets more rim contact. Brass embouchures are sort of like a cross between an oboe reed setup and a clarinet mouthpiece/reed set up. Both lips vibrate, but one lip serves sort of like the clarinet mouthpiece against which the other lip vibrates.
Downstream embouchure type players have more rim contact on the lower lip, so that lip will vibrate with less intensity than the upper lip.
Upstream embouchure type musicians have the reverse situation. These players place the mouthpiece with more lower lip inside the mouthpiece and there is more rim contact on the upper lip. The lower lip vibrates with more intensity (serving as the primary buzzing surface) and the upper lip serves more like the clarinet mouthpiece and gives the lower lip a more stable surface to vibrate against. The upper lip still does vibrate with upstream brass embouchures, but just with less intensity.
The air stream direction is only part of a larger picture regarding brass embouchure form and function. If you're a brass teacher or simply curious I've put together a resource here that tries to provide a comprehensive and objective guide to brass embouchure technique.
Sorry that I haven't replied to any comments here, but I stopped getting email notifications and I thought the thread died.
I'll add a few comments, the first of which is that, in retrospect, I think I did not express myself correctly. I don't know that my lower lip is the primary buzzing lip, but I'm convinced the my lower lip is the strength lip, and the lip that controls everything.
I pull my lower lip up to meet the upper lip, and when the muscles in my lower lip get tired, that is when my range suffers. I feel that the muscles just under my lower lip are pulling in an upward smile, while my chin muscles pull down. I plant my upper lip against my upper teeth, and so far as I'm aware I don't do much with the upper lip.
Someone mentioned putting less lower lip in the mouthpiece to play higher, which I do also.
There was another comment about overlapping lips. My lower lip definitely rolls over my lower teeth, in fact I can put the tip of my tongue on my lower lip while I'm playing.
So, I suspect that I have a weird, screwed up embouchure, but I think I need to work with what I have.
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