Heavy bottom valve caps

rkutcher · Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:10 pm Post subject: Heavy bottom valve caps

Yes or no and why? I have never used them but know lots of players do. Worth looking into?

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

There are many players who claim heavy bottom valve provide a benefit. I'm in no position to dispute any of these personal claims. I can neither prove nor disprove such claims as they apply to individual players because they are based in personal opinion.

That being said, I think there is no substitute for skill on the horn. As long as you are playing a decent horn in good working condition I don't think any modification to the horn is going to improve your results to any significant degree.

If it would why wouldn't the manufacturer have included the modification, especially something as simple as heavy bottom valve caps? From the outset it would cost only pennies more to make heavy bottom valve caps than it does to make lightweight bottom valve caps. It's just the cost of the materials (which hardly cost anything). Why wouldn't a manufacturer want to make their horn the best it can be?

Obviously, most manufacturers don't believe heavy bottom valve caps offer any advantages.

I don't have an objection to heavy bottom valve caps per se. My objection is the idea that gadgets, gizmos and horn modifications can substitute in any way for a lack of skill on the horn. These things become addictive and at the end of the day the player is the same player they were at the beginning of the day, there is no significant change being affected by the gadgets, gizmos and horn modifications.

Once again, there are players who swear by these things. I can only report my own observations: Over 60 years I've seen lots of players mess with things like heavy bottom valve caps, changing the braces, tone rings on mouthpieces, heavy horns, lightweight horns, etc., etc., etc. I've never seen a single player who was a better player solely on the basis of any of these changes. Different? Maybe. Better? No way.
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HERMOKIWI

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

OK, I see now that the OP has posted only 5 times and all the questions are coming at once. So are the questions facetious? Is this just an effort to get enough posts to list something in the marketplace? Was the question really an honest question, posed to invoke a discussion? I don't know. I guess we'll see based on the OP's future responses and participation in the forum. As for me, I feel a little duped at this point. If, in the future, the OP contributes to what TH is trying to achieve I'll feel differently.

I suggest that no one post further in this thread unless and until the OP shows an effort to contribute.
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HERMOKIWI

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

I also suggest that no one buy anything from the OP unless he proves himself to be a contributor here.
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HERMOKIWI

rkutcher · Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:19 pm Post subject:

Yes, I'm a real person, and (mostly) honest. LOL. These are questions I've had. But also, there is a requirement to post 5 times prior to being able to post in the MarketPlace. I've just bought a new Austin Winds horn, which I absolutely love, and have a 'renewed' interest in lots of trumpet things. Granted, these 5 were so that I might be able to sell my old horn.

rkutcher · Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 pm Post subject:

My apologies if I have offended anyone. It was not intentional.

LittleRusty · Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:19 pm Post subject:

Tpt_Guy · Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:05 am Post subject:

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

Brad361 · Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:57 am Post subject:

mm55 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412

multiphonic · Veteran Member Joined: 14 Oct 2019 Posts: 139

cgaiii · Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:54 am Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

adagiotrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 903

First of all, I would like to commend you on your honesty regarding the 5 posts. As far as heavy caps are concerned, I always considered heavy valve caps, weighted mouthpieces, movable sound posts, sound bridges and the like as being ineffective gimmicks. Not anymore. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, depending on the horn and/or mouthpiece.

As far as heavy caps, they did wonders for my Adams F1 flugelhorn, on which I use them on all three valves. I used four on my Schilke P5-4 but did not like using them when I switched to a P7-4. On my Yamaha C trumpet, only one on the third valve works best for me and on my Schilke Bb's, they "kill the ring" in the sound so I don't use them at all.

The best way to find out is to try heavy caps. And you may find that they work best on all three valves, on only one or two (and then you have to determine which one or two), or not at all. Keep in mind, this kind of experimentation can be frustrating, time consuming, and above all expensive.

KevinInGeorgia · Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:38 am Post subject:

Long before Heavy Caps were a thing my teacher use to put a Mercury Dime in his 3rd Valve bottom.. He was friends with Armando Ghitalla and got the idea and reasoning from him.. They both surmised that adding the weight to the middle of the horn and the silver percentage of the Mercury Dime helps with the response and the intonation.

http://www.thetrumpetblog.com/dime-or-no-dime/
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Kevin M.
Sounds of Sawnee Community Band

“Heroes turn into martyrs on this instrument.” ~ William Vacchiano

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

LittleRusty · Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:02 am Post subject:

Hmm. Five short sentences vs paragraph after paragraph voicing oneâ€™s pet peeve, all the while knowing that the forum owner sets the rules.

Which is truly clogging up the forums?

How about this? Find an alternative solution that solves both the spambot issues and serves the purpose of introducing the newbie to the forum and initiate a private conversation with Todd the owner as he is the only one who can change the policy.

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

shofarguy · Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject:

About ten years ago, I helped Flip Oakes with the web material he would publish concerning his accessory weighted valve caps and stems. We took his Wild Thing and Celebration trumpets to an auditorium with good acoustics and set about cataloging the differences with each trumpet, each tuning slide (Flip offered 8 designs) and each of the three weights of bottom caps. We included the top caps and stems in the mix, but I don't recall if we sampled each combination with and without them.

Flip would stand at the front of the auditorium and play a consistent music sample. I would walk around the room to observe changes in projection pattern and strength, timbre quality, articulation, etc. What was interesting is that it the results were not predictable, especially how the timbre was affected. Also, a given setup on the Wild Thing did not necessarily produce the same effect when used on the Celebration.

Fast forward a couple of years. I began to have intonation trouble with my personal WT. The horn just wasn't behaving right. I still had the prototype set of valve caps, so I tried the various bottom caps to see if they would help. My thinking was that my sound concept was developing, or my technique was going a certain direction and the horn no longer responded the way I wanted. I found, at that time, that the heaviest set of bottom caps gave the horn better response. I told this to Flip during a phone conversation and he told me to bring my trumpet down to the shop.

When I got there, he checked the alignment and inspected the pads. They had swollen from the valve oil and messed up the piston alignment. He said that the pad material was apparently prone to that and he had found a different composition that didn't swell. He fitted this new material to my horn. Now, the horn really sucked using the heavy bottom caps! I put the stock caps back on and voilÃ¡, the Wild Thing magic had returned! It seemed the offset in weight had helped smooth out the acoustic disturbances that had developed from the valves being misaligned. When those disturbances disappeared, the caps had a more adverse effect.

I've periodically made other experiments with my trumpets and flugelhorn using these weighted caps. Here's what I've come to believe: If the horn is developed with them, it will probably play best that way. If the caps are being added to a horn, it is generally best to balance the mass of the bottom cap with added weight at the top cap, as well. That mass needs to be part of a balanced valve assembly.

Case in point, the Flip Oakes Inspiration. That model arrived just prior to Kanstul closing its doors and there are only four in existence (plus the sister horn I call MystÃ©re.

) This trumpet is related closely to the Wild Thing Bb, but the added weight of the valve caps and buttons, plus the sleeved lead pipe works. That redesign resulted in a stable trumpet with secure slotting and a strong core at low or high volume, but it still had flexibility similar to the lighter weight Wild Thing design. I was impressed!
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.