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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:27 pm    Post subject: High Range Development Web Pages Reply with quote

I spent a lot of time updating my website to satisfy Google's latest requirements and in the process cleaned up my Trumpet Links webpage also. There are tons of trumpet links there and they all work.

http://www.trumpetperformancetips.com/trumpetlinks.html

Here is a web page on Trumpet Range ... you can buy pass my advice and go straight to the bottom of the page to find web pages by Maynard Ferguson, Lynn Nicholson, Bill Chase, Allen Vizzutti, Mike Ponella, Bobby Shew, Jon Faddis, Scott Englebright, Paul Stephens, Roger Ingram and Wayne Bergeron. Enjoy !

http://www.trumpetperformancetips.com/trumpethighrange.html
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your trumpet links are great.

However I have a question about high range development. We can't actually "compress the air." Compressing the air means that we do something to make a certain volume of air take up less volume than its natural volumetric space. Like a CO2 cartridge contains compressed CO2 held in by a metal canister. No one can actually do that with their body. No one is or can convert themselves into a human compressed air tank.

In your High Range Pages there are a lot of references to "compressing the air." What do the people who use the "compress the air" language really mean by that expression? It seems that it has to do with either tightening muscles or blowing with more force or some combination of both but that's not actually "compressing the air" in a true physical sense. The density of the air stays the same. No one is actually "compressing" the air.

So, what does it mean?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
... No one is actually "compressing" the air.

So, what does it mean?

--------------
It typically means blowing hard enough to produce air flow thru the aperture that is enough to cause lip vibrations.

Jay
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The density of air does not remain the same. Air at higher pressure levels is more dense than air at lower pressure levels.

When we blow against a resistance, whether that resistance is just our pursed lips, or in the case of trumpet playing our vibrating lips, we are creating thoracic air pressure in our lungs. As such we are compressing the air, even if just a little bit on the lower to middle range notes.

When we play into the upper register we arch our tongues up and forward creating a tiny channel for the air to go through and we have to blow harder to support the note, creating more air pressure (or as some like to call it, more air compression) If we are playing our highest notes we are blowing as hard as we can. A strong trumpet player can generate around 3.0 to 3.5 psi of air pressure and does so when playing a loud high note. That is a significant amount of pressure and in fact, is quite a bit higher than our venous blood pressure (which is why we get red faces when we play loud high notes - the thoracic air pressure is preventing the blood from leaving our heads).

That's what is meant by compressing the air.

Best wishes,

John
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What do the people who use the "compress the air" language really mean by that expression?


It means "pressurizing" the air by "blowing" effort. Pressure of the air in the lungs can be increased by the exhalation action and it can be decreased by the inhalation action.

And yes, the air is also volume compressed (density increased) proportional to the pressure placed on it. But for even the highest presures we use this is not a tremendous amount of density increase.

https://sciencing.com/calculate-air-volume-5146908.html

Unfortunately there are terms like "compression" used by players that are often misused and misuderstood.

Some also believe, falsely, that the tongue arch and/or the aperture "compresses" the air. They do not.

Only the lung state (fullness) plus the exhale or inhale effort determines the air pressure.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I think I understand. The term really relates primarily to increasing the air pressure rather than actually compressing the air into a smaller volume like air in a compressed air tank (although I acknowledge kalijah's statement that this compression technically happens to some extent).

I just wanted to know how to accurately express this to students.

Thank you!
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wayben
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changing the volume is what makes the pressure go up. We do it all day long as we breath. Inhaling is an active action. The diaphragm moves down and the interstitial muscles between our ribs move out and up to increase the volume of our lungs, decreasing the pressure in our lungs, causing air to flow in. Exhaling is a passive action. The diaphragm and interstitial muscles relax, decreasing the volume of our lungs, increasing the pressure in our lungs, causing air to flow out. When we blow a trumpet we manually constrict the diaphragm and interstitial muscles to decrease the volume of our lungs, increasing the pressure and forcing air out. Hope that helps.
Wayne
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you to all of you who defined what trumpet players commonly call "air compression." Most every famous trumpet player I have read about or studied over the past 50 years has used this terminology.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayben wrote:
Quote:
Changing the volume is what makes the pressure go up.


You are confusing volume decrease due to out-flow and volume reduction due to pressure. The pressure goes up due to to a mechanical action on the enclosed volume. If there is no flow, then the volume of a fixed number of air molecules reduces proportional to pressure.

The air flows from region of high to low pressure IF there is a path available.

We FIRST add the mechanical force to a region of the boundary that encloses the air. THIS increases the pressure for a positive force. And the density changes concurrently. If there is no opening in the boundary there is no outflow, yet the volume is reduced proportionally due to compressability of air.

If a flow path from the pressurized enclosure to a lower pressure region exists, then the air will flow out at a rate depending on 1. the pressure and 2. resistance of the flow path.

flow = pressure/resistance
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wayben
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

You are confusing volume decrease due to out-flow and volume reduction due to pressure.


Assuming a flow path, it is the muscles decreasing the lung volume that increases the pressure causing the out flow.

Wayne
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The muscles provide the force that increases the pressure. The outflow volume change will not occur unless there is pressure FIRST. It is not the volume reduction that induces the flow. It is the pressure.

Yes, the exhalation muscles are working to reduce the enclosed volume and thereby EXCHANGE the air by flow out. This action raises the lung pressure regardless of flow or not.

You are indeed still confusing 2 mechanisms of volume change, one is by mass-flow, and the other is density increase due to pressure.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thank you to all of you who defined what trumpet players commonly call "air compression." Most every famous trumpet player I have read about or studied over the past 50 years has used this terminology


They say alot of tings that only they themselves know what they mean. Many attempt to explain what they "feel" but then expect to be taken litteraly. Mostly they just repeat what other players say.

Once, in a conversation with one on your list it appered he didnt understand the difference beteen air "flow" and air "volume". I attempted to explain it to him. I don't think he accepted my explanation as accurate and indicated he would seek another explanation elsewhere. I guess he had to ask someone else who is known for playing high notes.
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wayben
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess we can both agree someone's confused, lol!!!
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's easy to calculate how much the lungs compress air (where compressing air means reducing its volume). The ideal gas law says PV = nRT. That means PV (pressure * volume) is a constant, because the lungs can't compress air enough to raise the temperature much.

If the lungs make a pressure of 10 inches of water to play a third space C, then the real pressure in the lungs is 10 inches + 407 inches (atmospheric pressure). So the air volume is reduced by 407 / 417, or 97.6% of its original size.

I can easily max out a 50 inch gauge by blowing into a tube. So 100 inches from the lungs is no doubt possible for some people. At that pressure, the volume is reduced to 407 / 507 or 80%. Pretty surprising.

The compression of air due to lung pressure is the reason a balloon weighs more after inflating. My daughter's teacher did a such a demo but gave the students an incorrect explanation. Here is the demo with the correct explanation.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But what players are really describing is the usefulness of the pressure increase with blowing effort. It would be more accurate if they used more relevant terms. Like " air pressure" not air "compression".

Obviously, the energy that is increasing as well. (Pressure is actually energy density that is, energy per unit of volume). The energy increase is required to play louder AND to overcome the decreasing efficiency of the system for ascending notes.

The actual volume compression is irrelevant and of no real concern and not something we can " feel". It DOES matter in regard to acoustics in the instrument but that also is transparent.
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