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Inflated top lip



 
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:24 am    Post subject: Inflated top lip Reply with quote

Johan Mohan provided a nice link to a performance by Claude Gordon and a fine band. Looking at CG he seemingly inflates his top lip a little while ascending.
Practicing the BE way this is not at all unusual to me nowadays. However I can´t remember if i did so in younger days. My top lip seems to want to inflate when I play above A(top of staff), not below. I can play an A (or a C etc) consciously avoiding this - but my lips then feel restricted. Likewise I can play a high C with puckered lips, the "Roll Out" way.
My (probably last and 2:nd teacher overall) tells me I should not do so! His belief is that I waste necessary air that way. This doesn´t constitute a problem to me but made me wonder if this kind of inflation is common in the trumpet/cornet community!
Mostly this teacher of mine concentrates on my breathing which is good for me.
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inflation of lips or cheeks is simply a way to influence lip position. It is beneficial for many players.

Some teachers don't like any kind of puffing. They have formed an unreasonable bias against it, and have come up with creative explanations to rationalize their position. They claim that it doesn't "look" right, or that it "wastes the air." One player that used to post on TH even insisted that he could "hear it in the sound" when a player used air pockets.

There are no physics to support their contentions, but their bias remains unshaken.

A bunched chin is also considered bad, as many claim it to be "inefficient."

My advice is to stop worrying about air pockets, or how you look in general. Not everyone will look the same. Further, results are what really matter. If it feels good and sounds good, it generally IS good.

Several years ago I posted a video of a young player (not my student) on my website who played very well with air pockets and a bunched chin. Of course, there were critics. However, he is now the principal with Chicago.

Jeff
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Inflation of lips or cheeks is simply a way to influence lip position. It is beneficial for many players.

Some teachers don't like any kind of puffing. They have formed an unreasonable bias against it, and have come up with creative explanations to rationalize their position. They claim that it doesn't "look" right, or that it "wastes the air." One player that used to post on TH even insisted that he could "hear it in the sound" when a player used air pockets.

There are no physics to support their contentions, but their bias remains unshaken.

A bunched chin is also considered bad, as many claim it to be "inefficient."

My advice is to stop worrying about air pockets, or how you look in general. Not everyone will look the same. Further, results are what really matter. If it feels good and sounds good, it generally IS good.

Several years ago I posted a video of a young player (not my student) on my website who played very well with air pockets and a bunched chin. Of course, there were critics. However, he is now the principal with Chicago.

Jeff


Thanks Jeff! I´ll carry on playing not worrying about my looks!
Guess I won´t make it to the principal chair with Chicago in spite of that!
But I do have chairs to fill over here!
In fact when I tried not to inflate, a day or two, my chops got very un-balanced. Now I´m back on track.
While I´m at it: The roll out nr 3 has always been difficult for me but I´m getting better. At one point, half a year ago or so, in a rather heavy chart, I managed to use Roll out embochure on some very high notes, puckered lips, sounded terrific but I´ve not been able to reproduce this.
Have a faint memory of having heard that some players use that for higfh register work (Wayne Bergeron??). What´s your opinion on that?
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few years ago there was a guy in Germany who sent me a couple of videos. One was his demonstration of Roll Out, and the other was Roll In. In both, he easily played up to loud double C's. His question was, which to use?

Some players read the BE book and assume that RI's are for higher notes, and RO's are for lower notes. That is incorrect.

A bunch of great players use a rolled out lip position throughout the full range of the instrument. Most of them play with the mouthpiece "bite" in the red of the bottom lip (like Arturo). Callet described this in great detail in an old book, Trumpet Yoga. He called it the einsetzen setup, a terminology normally associated with French horn.

Callet claimed that he kept his lips "unfurled" throughout all registers, and that it was how he played such effortless high notes. These days, dozens of other players like Lynn Nicholson and Larry Meregillano talk about the same general concept.

Rather than take sides on this issue, the general instruction in the BE book is to "allow" players to explore both types of lip range-of-motion, RO and RI. Some players end up strongly leaning to one side or the other. But most players gravitate towards the middle, and develop a a combination which is most useful for their particular physiology.

The BE book covers much more than RO and RI, but I addressed that point specifically because of your question.

Hope this helps!

Jeff
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
A few years ago there was a guy in Germany who sent me a couple of videos. One was his demonstration of Roll Out, and the other was Roll In. In both, he easily played up to loud double C's. His question was, which to use?


This may have some chicken or the egg to it. I know the player being referred to, personally. He has a prestigious position and is an experienced and monster player.

I have heard him before and after he started using BE. To be honest, I can't tell how much visual difference there is from before he used BE to after he used it, from either a viewer's or a listener's perspective.

Of course, it may have made a difference in how he physically performs that he feels internally but which I can't see, externally.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker


Last edited by kehaulani on Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kehaulaii, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Before and after what?

The point was that both RI and RO can generate results. One is not for high, and the other for low.

What point were you trying to make?

Jeff
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Before" he used BE and "after" he used BE, Jeff. I've added some words to my former post that may make what I mean, clearer. My bad if it wasn't clear.

I'm just saying that I can't see or hear a difference, but that the results of his using BE may have created some internal changes that have made his playing more efficient.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. I just think that your comment was kind of out of left field. It didn't seem to have anything to do with the thread, or the question.

But here are some thoughts.

First, by your description, I'm not really sure that you know the player that I am talking about. I have worked with quite a few talented players in Germany. In fact, I'm working with one right now.

Second, the player that I am talking about noticed positive differences from doing BE. He shared them with me over a few emails, along with some concerns. However, I do not share specific details about the players who email me, especially their problems. My only point in mentioning him was to show that a player can have great range using either RI or RO. His uniqueness is that he does both very well.

Third, I'm not sure how a player who is already very accomplished will somehow sound significantly better after learning a new method, even if the method is working. A great player already sounds great. Any improvements at that level tend to be about increased strength and ease of playing. Changes at that level are not always noticeable, unless you are a band mate who is around the player every day. If something good is happening, the band can usually tell the difference.

I work with players at all levels. I have advised several players from Germany who were already great - such as Uwe Zaiser and Andrew Joy - that in their own words credited BE for positive improvements. Does the average person notice those improvements? I doubt it.

Jeff
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only seen one video of a German player on YouTube doing BE and that was Uwe. I thought that was who you wee talking about. And, as you say, he was already good.

Regarding sound, I never said Uwe's sound sounded better after BE. In your own words, a great player already sounds great.

I was just agreeing with what you said about embouchure. Just must have said it awkwardly.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
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peanuts56
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that I've felt about BE exercises is that they help the player find their sweet spot. For some it's more rolled in and others it's rolled out.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peanuts56 wrote:
One thing that I've felt about BE exercises is that they help the player find their sweet spot. For some it's more rolled in and others it's rolled out.


O dear! Sweet spot spotting! First: (under the banner of possible misinterpretation and playing with words.. just for fun ): qoute (Jeff):Does the average person notice those improvements? I doubt it.
Could be understood as an average player listening to a great player who has done his BE chores - but doesn´t notice any differences - great guy still great - or an average player (like me) doesn´t notice any differences in his playing after having done the BE. I notice big differences, kind of reconquering the stamina of my youth, slowly but still going forward (upwards)the higher heavens, better sound, better everything in fact.
Consequently I´ve clearly developed from average (or was swimminmg near the bottom - which I cannot prove, on the contrary - I played the Hayden in concert rather well already 1974) - but should have been great from the start since I notice this improvement - but then no one around me would notice, only the true geniuses - and they are rather scarce...where I walk around.

Anyhow - I get the point, thanks Jeff for giving me this time of yours. Could be that I may arrive at roll outs - you never know - in the mean time I shall enjoy the trip! And my hiking crutches will be manufactured by BE
And please do bear with me - sometimes I just can´t refrain.
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<<Could be understood as an average player listening to a great player who has done his BE chores - but doesn´t notice any differences - great guy still great - or an average player (like me) doesn´t notice any differences in his playing after having done the BE.>>>

The former (bolded) is what I meant. I thought it was obvious, given the context.

Jeff
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I've only seen one video of a German player on YouTube doing BE and that was Uwe. I thought that was who you wee talking about. And, as you say, he was already good.

Regarding sound, I never said Uwe's sound sounded better after BE. In your own words, a great player already sounds great.

I was just agreeing with what you said about embouchure. Just must have said it awkwardly.


It's definitely not Uwe. The guy I'm talking about is not a well-known name - but he should be.

Sorry that I have not been clear.

You said that you didn't hear any difference in his playing, pre and post BE. I then asked how one could actually hear any difference if the player was already great? I never claimed that you said he sounded better. Rather, I claimed that it was irrelevant that you couldn't tell much difference (no offense) The only thing relevant to me is that Uwe can tell the difference in both his playing and in his teaching.

Hopefully I was clear this time.

Jeff
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peanuts56 wrote:
One thing that I've felt about BE exercises is that they help the player find their sweet spot. For some it's more rolled in and others it's rolled out.


Thanks, I agree in general. However, I prefer the term "balance" to the term "sweet spot." For example, players often settle for a sweet spot where the tone is really good, but the range is lacking. To me, "balance" signifies a more dynamic setup where all elements are more fully in play.

The other thing is, balance is relative. At different stages of development, balance will typically change. Players using BE, who were pleased with the initial results (first year), have told me how shocked they were when their playing skyrocketed a couple of years down the road.

Jeff
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