Monel Valves : New Trumpet : Discolouration : Is this common

Carly

Hi there, we found that these Monel valves had black brown discolouration and black spots in the brass valve areas after a few months of purchase. Is this common or should we be concerned. It was in storage for a couple of weeks and we were alarmed when seen. This is on the first valve, the other valves are not as badly effected but there are dark black spots. Just joined the forum so will include image when known how to attach.

JayKosta · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:03 am Post subject:

I suggest a thorough cleaning of the valve pistons and the horn. Use warm soapy water in a large soft plastic tub to prevent bumps and dents! Don't get the felts on the pistons wet.
Use a Q-tip to clean the pathways and ports in the pistons.

Sometimes the valves need to 'wear in' a bit with the casing, and that can lead to discoloration. As long as the pistons and the inside of the casings are still smooth, there shouldn't be a problem.
If the pistons are pitted, or the discolored areas seem rough or have a different 'finger tip feel', then there might be concerns.

Apply fresh grease (or heavy oil) to the slides, and valve oil on the pistons.

Also, sometimes a person's internal 'mouth chemistry' can have an effect. Be sure to brush your teeth and rinse before playing. And do not drink 'flavored beverages' while playing - just plain water.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

Carly · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:13 am Post subject:

Thanks Jay, sound advice, though this trumpet has had a thorough methodical clean, with q tips, warm soapy water, grease and the valve oil that came with the trumpet. We also use a trumpet swab, similar to a saxophone one to absorb any moisture along the tubing. When taken to the dealer they thought they could just use 'q' tip to remove the blemish but it did not work, it will be going back to the dealer's technician for assessment.

Thanks anyway, perhaps a trumpet technician can advise as to what this may be and why it is caused, despite all precautions to keep clean and care.

I do have images but do not know how to upload them.

Craig Swartz · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:53 am Post subject:

Just about any Bach trumpet I've owned has had this happen. I use Flitz cleaner on them, going lightly the length the piston, then be very careful to clean all of the residue before reassembling the instrument. Monel is extreely hard and the light buffing has never seemed to cause any issues. If you do not clean the pistons thoroughly afterwards, however, they will hang up.

I also use the Flitz in the same manner on the slide ferrules. It's easy enough on the finish that I can use it on fine blued firearms with no damage, either. Also works well on many automotive parts as well as paint if used correctly. Good luck.

mike ansberry · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:24 am Post subject:

I have had many instruments with monel valves come to my shop having this problem. In particular the early Jupiter monel valves, but also many Bachs and MANY low end instruments. To Jupiter's credit, they admitted it was a problem. They said it was caused by the composition of the monel causing brass from the casing to stick to it. I believe this is called galling. They sent me replacement stainless steel valves for every instrument I repaired at not charge. Problem solved. Other major manufacturers only passed the blame onto some other factor, not their problem.

I have had good luck using a light abrasive like jeweler's rouge or tripoli mixed with oil on a rag to hand buff the material off the valve. Be sure to thoroughly clean the valve afterwards. One friend had me do this to his Bach several years ago and it is still problem free now.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

walldaja · Regular Member Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 71

+ on the Flitz cleaner. I find that an occasional cleaning with this product gives me smooth and reliable valve action.
_________________
Dave

Sonare TRC-800, Dennis Wick 1.5C
Blessing Standard, Denis Wick 1.5C
Accent TR959 CDB C tpt Stork XM2 Studio Mstr
Jupiter 846S Flug Schilke 18F
Shires Q30GR T-bone 5 / 4 CL
Yamaha YBL-421G T-bone 2 CL
Jean Baptist Euphonium Stork 4

Riojazz · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:08 am Post subject:

I had this on my flugel, and used Flitz.

Question for Mike Ansberry: if you feel jeweler's rouge would be safe enough in the hands of a non-tech, could you recommend a brand or supplier?
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

cgaiii · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:39 pm Post subject:

Is this the Flitz product?
https://www.flitz.com/brass-copper-tarnish-remover/
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Riojazz · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:37 pm Post subject:

It might be. I get the little tube at a hardware store. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-imlukvc/images/stencil/380x507/attribute_rule_images/137_source_1561145848.jpg
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

cgaiii · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:46 pm Post subject:

Thanks Matt,

Different product. That is the polish, but now I know what you used.
I wonder if the stuff made for brass would also be good. Anyone know?
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Craig Swartz · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:29 pm Post subject:

Carly · Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:16 pm Post subject:

Hi there Cgaii

I note that you have a Yamaha YTR-6335S that is similar to the 5335gsii that has this valve problem. Did your trumpet valves have similar blemish in the valves?

cgaiii · Posted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:03 pm Post subject:

Yes. The 6335 is the one I have with the discoloration, pretty much black patches. I got this trumpet used. I also have a late 90's 4335 with Monel valves, and when I checked, there was one tiny spot that looked the same just on the first valve. I have owned this horn since it was new and basically used Yamaha valve oil the whole time.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

Carly

yourbrass

Carly

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

I have seen monel porosity problems in several Jupiters. Yamaha has flexed back and forth as to what they are building in China vs elsewhere. At one point, quite a few Yamaha models you would not expect were being made there in whole or in part - it appears they have now swung the pendulum the other way.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20