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E_Smith Regular Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2019 Posts: 47
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:41 am Post subject: Rolling up the Sleeves |
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Hello all!
I'll get right to my question, as I can't think of any lengthy intro to type out. If you guessed that this thread was about sleeves, you'd be correct.
My question(s) is (are): What's the science behind mouthpiece sleeves? Do many of you use them? Do all sleeves fit all trumpets? Should a young player such as myself buy products like this?
Well, that's all I've got. I should say that I'm in no hurry to get any new gear right now, as I've been having fun with my new MP: an Olds 3C. (My director suggested that I make the switch)
Thanks _________________ -E
College Kid
UMI Silver Flair | Fullerton Olds Studio
King Legend 2070
1921 Conn 80A
Trumpeter, Pianist, Drummer |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:57 am Post subject: |
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In short, sleeves allows for some additional optimization that many don't seem to want or need but that in some instances delivers big improvements. I've got a Schilke Symphony that fits poorly in my Bach and playing quality is problematic. With sleeves I was able to find a particular sleeve that produced a clearly much better response. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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I personally tried mouthpiece sleeves and I hated them. It was likely a mental thing. Like, "oh, I missed a note, better try a new sleeve." I just couldn't get it dialed in where I want it. It was just one more thing to fuss with.
I ended up selling them to someone that loves them! So hey, not everything works for everyone.
They're certainly cheap enough, so it's easy to buy them and if you don't like them you can sell them quickly, there's demand out there.
And re: the science, here you go: https://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/
Good luck. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Rolling up the Sleeves |
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E_Smith wrote: | ...
My question(s) is (are): What's the science behind mouthpiece sleeves? Do many of you use them? Do all sleeves fit all trumpets? Should a young player such as myself buy products like this?
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I wouldn't worry about sleeves at this point. Especially if there aren't any problems that seem specifically related to using a different mouthpiece. And if your teacher / band director has not mentioned any problems with your playing.
And NO, sleeves won't help your high range.
I'd concentrate on doing a simple test of playing various major scales, the tone quality of each note should be similar (and sound good) - not some notes fuzzy and some clean. At your 'playable upper range', the notes should be distinct, and not 'slide into' each other.
For someone who can ALWAYS 'play the right note at the right time', then being concerned about small nuances that might be related to gap becomes a consideration.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Turkle wrote: | I personally tried mouthpiece sleeves and I hated them. It was likely a mental thing. Like, "oh, I missed a note, better try a new sleeve." I just couldn't get it dialed in where I want it. It was just one more thing to fuss with.
I ended up selling them to someone that loves them! So hey, not everything works for everyone.
They're certainly cheap enough, so it's easy to buy them and if you don't like them you can sell them quickly, there's demand out there.
And re: the science, here you go: https://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/
Good luck. |
I confess that I don't like that my particular mouthpiece seems to fit too loosely in the sleeve. I don't want it to rotate when I play. I've played other peoples sleeved mouthpieces and the sleeves seem to fit snugly enough that I hardly notice that it is sleeved.
My teacher had a favorite mouthpiece sleeved. After he determined the optimal sleeve he had it soldered on and the hex shaved down. It's almost impossible to tell it was ever sleeved. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 904
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I think gap is important and the best way to find optimal gap is with sleeves. The only issue I have is the fact that on some mouthpieces, I have used the lefreQue with good results and I wonder if a sleeved mouthpiece would have a negative effect on the performance of a lefreQue. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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The trumpet world got along without sleeves for centuries and produced a long list of incredible players. You don't need sleeves to be a great player.
Disclosure: I have a full set of Bob Reeves sleeves and several Bob Reeves mouthpieces cut for sleeves. I never experienced any significant change by using sleeves. If others report a significant change then good for them. I'm just reporting my own experience. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1531 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:26 pm Post subject: Rolling up the sleeves |
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Hello all,
Welcome to the OP for joining the TH. I used sleeves to adjust the gap on my receiver with success. When I changed mp's, the gap was good and I found that the sound of the one piece mp, was more stable. I have learned that others found the same attribute. The sleeves shank was deadened by the O ring. I still will use the sleeves on horns where the receivers are worn past original specs...Until I get the horns, receiver fixed. I played an Olds 3C for 4 years when I was younger. I think they are too small. I personally would find a Schilke 13 or a Bach 3C. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 904
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Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:51 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | The trumpet world got along without sleeves for centuries and produced a long list of incredible players. You don't need sleeves to be a great player.
Disclosure: I have a full set of Bob Reeves sleeves and several Bob Reeves mouthpieces cut for sleeves. I never experienced any significant change by using sleeves. If others report a significant change then good for them. I'm just reporting my own experience. |
And many symphonies by famous composers use to be performed with trumpets that had no valves. The world got along without "brass boat anchors" for centuries too. I have no use for trumpets that need to go on metalurgical diets. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have them. You don't need "brass ballast" to be a good player, but there sure are some great players that sound terrific on these horns.
There is a strong consensus that gaps matter. Sleeves seem to be the best way to dial in a gap. DISCLAIMER: While I have used mouthpieces cut for sleeves in the past and still have those mouthpieces and sleeves, I haven't used them in probably 40 years. I do , however, consider them a legitimate tool for playing trumpet. |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1548 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:08 am Post subject: |
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adagiotrumpet wrote: | I think gap is important and the best way to find optimal gap is with sleeves. The only issue I have is the fact that on some mouthpieces, I have used the lefreQue with good results and I wonder if a sleeved mouthpiece would have a negative effect on the performance of a lefreQue. |
Had to look up the lefreQue. My thought is that a sleeve would not affect it much since it would probably touch the mouthpiece above the sleeve.
If you are looking for a sleeve to adjust gap, you can have Jim New fit your mouthpiece with a Gap Modulator. http://james-r-new.com/accessories/gap-modulator-50.html _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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Jonak5634 New Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2020 Posts: 10
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:56 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn’t mess with sleeves. Not unless down the road you try a bob reeves mpc for a lead piece or whatever and it is cut for sleeves. If your mouthpiece doesn’t wobble in your receiver, I’d say you don’t need one. Even if it was a bit wobbly, I don’t think it’d be worth the 100$ or more to get a mouthpiece with a sleeve. |
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Jonak5634 New Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2020 Posts: 10
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:03 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn’t mess with sleeves. Not unless down the road you try a bob reeves mpc for a lead piece or whatever and it is cut for sleeves. If your mouthpiece doesn’t wobble in your receiver, I’d say you don’t need one. Even if it was a bit wobbly, I don’t think it’d be worth the 100$ or more to get a mouthpiece with a sleeve. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Whose sleeves are you folks talking about? Using all the same or does this represent a variety? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Whose sleeves are you folks talking about? Using all the same or does this represent a variety? |
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I wasn't addressing any particular variety of sleeves or other method of 'gap measurement or adjustment' - only that unless something is obviously wrong, the value of tinkering with mouthpiece gap doesn't have a good likelihood of giving noticeable improvement.
Yes, changing the gap can make some difference if carefully tested and compared, but how much improvement will result from the difference?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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adagiotrumpet wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: | The trumpet world got along without sleeves for centuries and produced a long list of incredible players. You don't need sleeves to be a great player.
Disclosure: I have a full set of Bob Reeves sleeves and several Bob Reeves mouthpieces cut for sleeves. I never experienced any significant change by using sleeves. If others report a significant change then good for them. I'm just reporting my own experience. |
And many symphonies by famous composers use to be performed with trumpets that had no valves. The world got along without "brass boat anchors" for centuries too. I have no use for trumpets that need to go on metalurgical diets. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have them. You don't need "brass ballast" to be a good player, but there sure are some great players that sound terrific on these horns. |
Ridiculous exaggerated overstated analogy. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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I mean, it's obvious that all trumpet modifications, from heavy valve caps to mouthpiece sleeves to rubber washers to valve guides or whatever other goofy things people have come up with, they work for some people and some trumpets, and don't work for other people and other trumpets. This is not a bad thing. It's just the way the world works.
I found mouthpiece sleeves to be totally counterproductive for my own playing. It's obvious that they work very well for some other people. I don't understand why that's hard to grasp for some people!
(I subscribe to my own brands of magic beans - I love playing with heavy valve caps, metal vs. plastic valve guides, removable braces, and other mods. They don't even work on all of my trumpets - some respond to changes and others don't. So you just have to try and see what works for you and your setup.) _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3832 Location: Greece
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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Today I was testing my TL6-1A(one of the two favorite Lawlers among ten horns I have try until now)to find the right sleeve , I ended up with a #3.5, it fits great and slotting,tuning and responce is great , with the #4 it was right but not perfect with the #3 it was the WORST horn I ever played.....for me sleeves system is the way yo find your favorite horn sooner .
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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giakara wrote: | Today I was testing my TL6-1A(one of the two favorite Lawlers among ten horns I have try until now)to find the right sleeve , ... |
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Are you able to describe how the TL6-1A plays when using a standard conventional 1-piece mouthpiece?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3832 Location: Greece
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Yes is very easy becose I have the same set of mpcs I use for my TL5-1A in one piece version (screw rim both sets but one set is cut for sleeves and the other is one piece), for the test I pick up a Reeves Purviance P9 one piece (#4 sleeve size) and one with #4 sleeve and the results was the same,the mpc was good but not perfect but when I put the #3.5 sleeve everything was perfect, better pitch, better slotting specially in high registers, the sound is more compact and the general feel better.
But in my other horn a TL5-1A -that is the best horn in every aspect I ever try and I have try more than hundreds different pro/boutique horns the last twenty years- I use the standard #4 sleeve and when I use a P9 one piece and a P9 with a #4 (actually the same pieces) the one piece has better general feel and a little fuller sound but when the horn requires a different sleeve than the standard #4 the difference withe the proper sleeve is huge.
I hope to help you becose me English are not so good.
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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